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Who is the plural referring to in Genesis 11:7 if it's GOD himself (or Yahweh) who has confused the language of people to stop the building of the Babel Tower?

Verse from the NIV Bible:

"Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."

As you can see there is written "come, let US go down". ... Us who?

From the Hebrew Bible:

הָבָה נֵרְדָה וְנָבְלָה שָׁם שְׂפָתָם אֲשֶׁר לֹא יִשְׁמְעוּ אִישׁ שְׂפַת רֵעֵהוּ

(häväh nër'däh w'näv'läh shäm s'fätäm ásher lo yish'm'û iysh s'fat rëëhû)

English:

Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

Fabrizio Mazzoni
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    I didn't check the Hebrew, but I'd suspect this to be an English language thing. It's uncommon to say 'let me ...' –  Jun 30 '15 at 12:18
  • Not really. 1 - Let me have a drink, I am having a drink alone with no one else. 2 - Let US have a drink, We are ALL going to have a drink, me you and any other that is with me, that means a LOT of US. First is Singular, Second is PLURAL – Fabrizio Mazzoni Jun 30 '15 at 12:29
  • Okay, you got a point there, 'let me...' isn't uncommon. But 'let us...' isn't either, especially in old English. –  Jun 30 '15 at 12:30
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    @FabrizioMazzoni The English usage is called "royal we" and it also occurs in literature in a variety of languages. I would add here that the name for G-d which is often used in the Torah is אֱלֹהִים, which is actually plural and literally means "G-ds". – Tim Biegeleisen Jun 30 '15 at 12:48
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    See also, Gen 1:26. (Oddly, I’m not finding a question about that one here.) @TimBiegeleisen But of course, elohim is usually used with singular verbs; this is different in that regard. (We do have approximately a zillion Q&As on the elohim / number issue.) – Susan Jun 30 '15 at 13:27
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    It appears that the Hebrew does say 'us' - plural, so it is not an translation issue. – Dick Harfield Jul 01 '15 at 03:12
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    @FabrizioMazzoni. I am not sure how good your English is. A native speaker might say "Let me have a drink" if he is talking to a bar tender. If he is talking to himself he would definitely say "Let's have a drink". – fdb Jul 02 '15 at 19:39
  • @fdb out of curiosity where are you from? I have never gone into a bar alone saying let us have a drink neither any of my friends which happen to be English Zimbabwean south African which all speak proper English..... – Fabrizio Mazzoni Jul 02 '15 at 19:53
  • @fdb While the commonly used conjunction "let's" is technically "let us" it's a pretty hard sell to say that means people are walking around saying "let us" do this or that. – Joshua Jul 02 '15 at 20:44
  • Related: https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/5789/what-is-the-likely-way-in-which-ancient-hebrews-would-have-understood-raqiya-i – James Shewey Nov 05 '15 at 19:12
  • @Susan Please consider the possibility that "Elohim" is a personal proper name, to account for the reality when the name was chosen there were three Gods, of a singular entity and therefore the verb is singular. – Chin-Lee Chan Dec 09 '18 at 08:26

4 Answers4

4

As several of the comments have already noted, there are parallels for this in other languages, including English. When we talk (figuratively) to ourselves we do say things like “let’s go”, “allons-y”, “gehen wir”. The underlying idea is that when we talk to ourselves we are in effect splitting ourselves in half, with one of our two personae addressing the other. Genesis 11:7 uses verbs in the first person plural in the Hebrew original ( נֵרְדָה וְנָבְלָה ) and in all the ancient translations (καταβάντες συγχέωμεν, descendamus et confundamus etc.).

fdb
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  • Why the belated down-vote? – fdb Dec 26 '16 at 12:19
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    That seems inconsistent. God speaks in the first person and now he is still only referring to Himself though it clearly says us? It doesn’t seem like God to be so sloppy, it has to be intentional – Nihil Sine Deo Jun 22 '19 at 04:13
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From Keil and Delitzsch's Commentary:(From here)

By the firm establishment of an ungodly unity, the wickedness and audacity of men would have led to fearful enterprises. But God determined, by confusing their language, to prevent the heightening of sin through ungodly association, and to frustrate their design. "Up" (הבה "go to," an ironical imitation of the same expression in Genesis 11:3 and Genesis 11:4), "We will go down, and there confound their language (on the plural, see Genesis 1:26; נבלה for נבלּה, Kal from בּלל, like יזמו in Genesis 1:6), that they may not understand one another's speech."

They further state:

When it is stated, first of all, that God resolved to destroy the unity of lips and words by a confusion of the lips, and then that He scattered the men abroad, this act of divine judgment cannot be understood in any other way, than that God deprived them of the ability to comprehend one another, and thus effected their dispersion.

The argument of the Personages of God is given a careful rendering in their Gen. 1:26 commentary: 3 arguments for the "Us" are given,

1) Pluralis Majestatis-the understanding that God is Trinitarian; this is the Early Church Father's understanding, which God reveals Himself through time as 3 Persons

2) An address by God Himself-the subject and object being identical

3) An address to spirits and angels who are present and stand in His council

The last argument founders,

upon this rock: either it assumes without sufficient scriptural authority, and in fact in opposition to such distinct passages as Genesis 2:7, Genesis 2:22; Isaiah 40:13 seq., Genesis 44:24, that the spirits took part in the creation of man; or it reduces the plural to an empty phrase, inasmuch as God is made to summon the angels to cooperate in the creation of man, and then, instead of employing them, is represented as carrying out the work alone. Moreover, this view is irreconcilable with the words "in our image, after our likeness;" since man was created in the image of God alone (Genesis 1:27; Genesis 5:1), and not in the image of either the angels, or God and the angels.(From here)

Furthermore,

just as little ground is there for regarding the plural here and in other passages (Genesis 3:22; Genesis 11:7; Isaiah 6:8; Isaiah 41:22) as reflective, an appeal to self; since the singular is employed in such cases as these, even where God Himself is preparing for any particular work (cf. Genesis 2:18; Psalm 12:5; Isaiah 33:10)

The only conclusion is

No other explanation is left, therefore, than to regard it as pluralis majestatis, - an interpretation which comprehends in its deepest and most intensive form (God speaking of Himself and with Himself in the plural number, not reverentiae causa, but with reference to the fullness of the divine powers and essences which He possesses) the truth that lies at the foundation of the trinitarian view, viz., that the potencies concentrated in the absolute Divine Being are something more than powers and attributes of God; that they are hypostases, which in the further course of the revelation of God in His kingdom appeared with more and more distinctness as persons of the Divine Being.

Therefore "Us" in Gen. 11:7 must be correctly identified as God, being in 3 Persons, who in time will manifest these Personages to all creation.

Tau
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    I think that Old Testament studies have advanced a bit since 1861 (the date of Keil-Delitzsch) and I do not see the point of posting an “answer” which is merely a paste job of an old commentary. Serious Biblical scholars now do not use this sort of argument to “prove” that the Trinitarian dogma of the council of Nicaea can be projected back into the Old Testament. – fdb Jul 02 '15 at 18:12
  • @fdb The point being-the commentary I posted provides a serious exposition in answering the question; dealing with linguistic issues as well as dealing with the related arguments the OP presented. You can always post another answer. – Tau Jul 02 '15 at 19:19
  • Oh and to add, the use of the word :LORD' in your translation is in error, as the actual word translated as 'LORD' is YHVH, which does not mean lord, it is a proper name. So being it is a proper name the use of 'elohiym is in the single form, not plural. – seedy3 Nov 03 '15 at 22:14
  • I apologize this comment was not meant to be on this post, I dunno how it got here and not on the one above – seedy3 Nov 03 '15 at 22:58
  • I’m going to ask you the same question, Is it three persons of the Godhead or is it God and the sons of God? Deu 32:8ESV, DSS,LXX says that God divided the nations among the gods/elohim. So who exactly are the “us”? – Nihil Sine Deo Jun 22 '19 at 04:07
  • @Autodidact I'm not a fan of the LXX-on more than 1 occasion they vary with the Masoretic Text concerning the crucial "personage of God" issue. It's older, but IMO it's been "tampered with", and the Masorites actually "corrected" some of their excesses. My belief is this was done in the 1st and 2nd Centuries, when the outrage against the "Messiah" forced their scribes to "re-write" certain passages to console the Diaspora. Interestingly, the Qumran scrolls more accurately reflect the Masoretic Text-almost word for word. Conclusion: My answer stays as written. – Tau Jun 23 '19 at 16:36
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    The Qumran Scrolls? Really? I just found this on this stack https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/7862/what-is-the-original-text-of-deuteronomy-328-9 and also https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1278&context=lts_fac_pubs at least you admit the Masorites changed it, even if you claim that they “corrected” it they certainly edited one way or the other. I don’t share your view evidently and I’m not one to favor everything Heiser has to say either. I disagree on his interpretation of the elohim but still he makes some great points. Thank you for your comment. – Nihil Sine Deo Jun 23 '19 at 16:49
  • @Autodict My main objection(I have several) with the LXX is the translation of Zech 12:10, "....and they shall look upon Me, whom they have pierced". The Masoretic Text says it plainly, the LXX, depending on who's version you use, say "and they will look at me who they mocked, and weep for him..." It doesn't seem consistent with the claim Aquila followed Rabbi Akiva's attempt to "sanitize" the texts. And certain(though not all) texts exactly follow the Qumran Scrolls. But bigger fish than us have argued this. – Tau Jun 23 '19 at 23:15
  • The conclusion is "correctly identified as God, being in 3 Persons", yet I see nothing in any of these scriptures that even implies the number 3. They just as easily support the number 2. – Ray Butterworth Oct 05 '19 at 13:45
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Christian tradition simply regards the numerous use of plurals when referring to Gods as evidence of the Trinity. For example, "Elohim" (as God is often referred to) is plural, though Jewish tradition would disagree and point out that in Hebrew the verb or adjective actually tells the reader if a noun should be understood as singular or plural.

For example, in Deuteronomy 6:4, a very literal rough translation might be "Hear/Obey O Israel, the LORD your Gods are one." Christian tradition argues that the plural "Gods" here is evidence of the Trinity, while Jewish tradition would argue that "Echad" (One) indicates that would be improper. The Christian response to this is that Echad means "one" in the sense that a cluster of grapes are "one".

Therefore, to the Christian reader, the interpretation would be that this says "us" because it is the three members of the trinity who go down and confuse the language of the people of the tower or Babel.

James Shewey
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  • The use of the title אלהינו ('elohiym) does not presuppose a multi faceted God. It is an expression of superiority and greatness when used in this case, in a case of singularity. It is only plural when used in a plural instance. It is not any sort of way indicate the Trinity. – seedy3 Nov 03 '15 at 22:11
  • I think I covered that. – James Shewey Nov 03 '15 at 22:17
  • I don't know how, but this next post ended up on the post below your's, and it clarified what I said to show it is being used in the singular. I'll repost it here: "Oh and to add, the use of the word :LORD' in your translation is in error, as the actual word translated as 'LORD' is YHVH, which does not mean lord, it is a proper name. So being it is a proper name the use of 'elohiym is in the single form, not plural." – seedy3 Nov 03 '15 at 23:00
  • @JamesShewey By context , the word "echad" as a predicate adjective in Deuteronomy 6:4 can be translated as "integral" (i.e., having integrity), according to An Introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax by Bruce K. Waltke and M. O'Connor, 1990 – Chin-Lee Chan Dec 09 '18 at 08:36
  • Is it three persons of the Godhead or is it God and the sons of God? Deu 32:8ESV, DSS,LXX says that God divided the nations among the gods/elohim. So who exactly are the “us”? – Nihil Sine Deo Jun 22 '19 at 04:05
  • @Autodidact - in that context, Elohim refers to lords or nobles - similar to what was seen in the English system the land was divided amongst the equivelant or dukes, barons, viscounts, lords, etc. Secondary to it's usage as a referent to God, Elohim is also used to refer to nobility and kings and so forth. – James Shewey Jun 24 '19 at 15:27
  • @JamesShewey show me two witnesses to this context from Scripture please, when it explicitly refers to a noble (human) as an el(ohim) and not something that one infers from the “context”. Thank you. The first I’ve heard of your definition. – Nihil Sine Deo Jun 24 '19 at 15:47
  • @Autodidact - Exo 21:6, Exo 22:8-9, 1 Samuel 2:25 and Gen 23:6 all provide examples of this usage. It's not the most common usage, but it is a valid one. per BDB (I don't have my HALOT available...) An alternate rendering suggested for bringing the person before a judge is "before God" which could make sense in the context of Deu 32:8 as well - eg "when he divided all mankind" presumably this division & districting was a judicial activity (that is; before God). Rules & judges is probably the better gloss... – James Shewey Jun 24 '19 at 18:52
  • It was most definitely judicial, that is a given. God takes the office of judge often in Scripture. The texts you mention make up such a low percentage it would be what one would refer to as an exception but I’m not one to discount verses. What’s more curious is now the MT, why the sons of Israel are a term to substitute for judges. Hmmm... let me look into this. The NT uses the term too. Luke 20:35,36 in speaking of humans as sons of God. Romans 8:14,19 and Galatians 3:26, 1 Cor 6:2,3 in speaking of judging humans. It’s beginning to make sense. – Nihil Sine Deo Jun 24 '19 at 19:49
  • These elohim in the OT though human, were specially selected and had the spirit of God over them. Number 11:25 they were able to prophecy and were given the Spirit of God to make judgment. The reason they even qualified to make judgement was because they had the Spirit of God. ”For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God”. @JamesShewey it therefore becomes much more clear to me that the elohim were not human at the splitting of the nations because humanity was in rebellion with poor leadership/judges. They were definitely “angels” and psalm 82 Says they were not human. – Nihil Sine Deo Jun 24 '19 at 19:58
  • I down voted because no credible translation of Deut. 6:4 has "Gods." You wrote, "... the LORD your Gods are one." "Elohim" is plural in form grammatically, but always singular in use when applied to Almighty God. In Deut. 6:4, the words "LORD" and "one" are singular which indicates one God, not "Gods." – Jesus Saves Jan 31 '21 at 22:15
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YAHUHA the Father(Creator) created through and for YAHSUHA all creation. The "us" is either the two as they are one. And also since they are one echad in Hebrew the "us" may also just be to show simply an expression of superiority of greatness. If we had known or seen YAHSHUA we would know the father. Since they are both represented as the same image. Their image is the us in the Father making man in their "us" image. YAHUHA and YAHSUHA image and likeness since they are echad spiritually

curiousdannii
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