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My Grammatiktrainer tells me that if you want to use the passive but still name the person you use "von" (and the dative) but if the action is caused by a thing you use "durch" (and the accusative).

This usually works as in:

Die Idee ist vom Chef abgelehnt worden.

and

Das Gebäude wurde durch einen Sturm beschädigt.

But one answer the Trainer gives is confusing me:

In der letzten Nacht wurde das Eingangtor der Firma von einem LKW gerammt

Now this sounds right to me and "durch einen LKW" would sound strange, but an LKW is a thing and not a person, so I think the "rule" about person = von and thing = durch is an oversimplification. Can someone explain this to me?

Edit:

The answer at When does one use “von” and when “durch” to form the passive? does not really answer my question because the LKW would be the instrument (used by its driver) with which the damage was caused and therefore according to that explanation "durch" should be used.

SwissCodeMen
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Steve
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    Does When does one use “von” and when “durch” to form the passive? answer your question? – Tsundoku Feb 02 '21 at 21:06
  • @Tsundoku Not really because the LKW would be the instrument with which the damage was caused and therefore according to that explanation "durch" should be used. However the question has now been closed without me getting a satisfactory answer. Schade. – Steve Feb 03 '21 at 13:19
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    I suggest that you edit your question by adding an explanation of why the answer to the related question do not solve your question. It should then re-enter the review queue. – Tsundoku Feb 03 '21 at 13:26
  • @Tsundoku I have edited the post as you suggested but over an hour later it still remains closed with a [duplicate] label. How long does it usually take to re-enter the review queue? – Steve Feb 03 '21 at 16:11
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    A question needs five non-moderator votes (or one moderator vote) to get closed or reopened. Your question currently has two reopen votes, but I don't know how fast reviews are on this site. Sometimes it's a matter of hours, sometimes it takes a few days. – Tsundoku Feb 03 '21 at 16:13
  • Thanks for your help. – Steve Feb 04 '21 at 07:59
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    The other post actually does answer your question. My answer sais that durch evocates an intention. In your sentence, normally, no intention would be expressed. So, if you want to epxress that someone unmentioned (for instance the driver of the lorry) intentionally used the lorry to hit the gate, you would use durch, if you do not want to imply this, you use von. – Jonathan Scholbach Feb 05 '21 at 09:14
  • @jonathan.scholbach You attribute intention to the wind and to cars? – Tsundoku Feb 05 '21 at 09:17
  • @Tsundoku No. Actually, I wrote: durch is implying an intention, so that the agent named is actual just an instrumental means of someone. But let's not discuss the other question here. In case you have comments on my answer there, please comment over there. – Jonathan Scholbach Feb 05 '21 at 09:23
  • I still believe this is a duplicate. Since the community has already voted to re-open, I do not want to override the community-decision with my mod privilege. But I advocate to close this question (again) because it is a duplicate. – Jonathan Scholbach Feb 05 '21 at 09:25
  • @jonathan.scholbach Lets say a bank robber intentionally drove his LKW at the entrance door to a bank in order to rob said bank. You seem to me to be saying that the passive form in German would be: "In der letzten Nacht wurde das Eingangtor der Bank DURCH einem LKW gerammt"? I am honestly confused by this question and am seeking clarification, nothing more than that. – Steve Feb 05 '21 at 14:51
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    Hi, I think your misunderstanding is that a thing MUST be an instrument. This is not always the case, you can also "personify" a thing to become an actor in itself. In your sentence, the LKW has become an actor and has the role which in other contexts a person would be assigned to, although it is not a living thing. – AGuyCalledGerald Feb 05 '21 at 15:25
  • @Steve This is all answered in the duplicate question. – Jonathan Scholbach Feb 05 '21 at 15:26
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    Does this answer your question? When does one use "von" and when "durch" to form the passive? – AGuyCalledGerald Feb 05 '21 at 15:28
  • @AGuyCalledGerald - fyi: I think Deutschegrammatik20.de addresses your point under the heading of von oder durch. Could you make your comment into an answer? – Satish Vasan Mar 19 '21 at 10:39
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    I think this is a minor issue. Being a native speaker, I hardly know the rule, and I hear both versions. I would suggest to reprioritze, and dig deeper elsewhere. At least in common day to to day use nobody would worry about putting this "wrong", it has no impact on understanding. But wait, the distinction becomes interesting if an actor causes an effect using a tool, and you want to state both facts in the same sentence: "vom Handelnden durch etwas" works, the other way round would not. – Frankstr Apr 01 '21 at 21:17

4 Answers4

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Hmm, it does not necessarily depend on if it's a person or a thing. Easily explained, "von" is used, if you can see the originator. I think that is meant by "instrumental" as you can read in the other answers you mention.

For example, if you say "Es wurde durch äußere Umstände verursacht", the orginator is quite abstract, and that is why you use "durch" here. But in your case, you can see the lorry as it crashed the gate.

äüö
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I don't think you necessarily have to use "durch" for things. "Es wurde von einem Sturm beschädigt" sounds fine to me as a native (but this might just be because I speak English all the time...).

Sagittarius
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‚Durch‘ is rather used to indicate a cause which is usually something abstract in the sense of being intangible like a misfortune or physical force while ‚von‘ indicates a person or thing as an executant.

BTZ
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After having thought about this question for a while, I came to the conclusion that in terms of usage there is little to no difference between von and durch. While some people go to great lenghts to describe the minute differences that may or may not exist, in application the difference is likely more one of style than of meaning. Any existing difference will be lost even on native speakers.

That being said, there is a difference in register, i.e. more formal texts, such as legal documents, will tend to use durch, because it sounds more official.

However, there is one particular set of cases, where this question becomes relevant. That is, if a passive sentence uses both an agent and another part of the sentence uses von. In these cases the acting party of the passive sentence will be marked using durch to avoid ambiguity. In English, this issue is solved by using by and from, while in German it would be grammatically correct to use von for both.

An example: The colour combination red, white, and blue was copied by Russia from the Netherlands.

In German: Die Farbkombination red, weiß und blau wurde von Russland von den Niederlanden kopiert.

As I mentioned, this is grammatically sound, but unlike in the english sentence, it is more or less impossible to tell, who did the copying and who it was copied from. Therefore, it would be more reasonable to say:

Die Farbkombination red, weiß und blau wurde durch Russland von den Niederlanden kopiert.

The ambiguity here partially returns, when the agent is removed and the sentence retains only the von information. In such cases, the only option is to guess the meaning from context.

Markus G.
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