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I am asking this in relation to this Linguistics question: When was the name of Wales first mentioned in Romanian, and in which form?.

At the same time I have posted this on English SE: Etymology of the name Wales/Welsh in modern English: which one is the basic term?

To that I have an answer: in modern Norman/English the name of Wales is based on the name of the people, because initially WAS the name of the people.

What is the origin and the meaning of the name "Pays de Galles" in French?

  • Is it a transcription of the English term Wales - as in Prince of Wales?

  • Did Galles in French originally mean "the people" or "the territory"?

  • Is it already attested in Medieval Latin and translated from that into French?

  • At what time was it first attested and in which context?

Although I am interested in the term for the Welsh people in French, I am mainly asking about the terms "Wales" and "Prince of Wales" in French.

Anticipating my own answer, I make the following suppositions:

  • "Pays de Galles" is based on the form of the title "Prince de Galles", which preceded it. Wikipedia says that

Owain Gwynedd (1100–70) of the Aberffraw line was the first Welsh ruler to use the title princeps Wallensium (prince of the Welsh)... Owain Gwynedd's grandson Llywelyn Fawr (the Great, 1173–1240), wrested concessions through Magna Carta in 1215 and receiving the fealty of other Welsh lords in 1216 at the council at Aberdyfi, became the first Prince of Wales. His grandson Llywelyn ap Gruffudd also secured the recognition of the title Prince of Wales from Henry III with the Treaty of Montgomery in 1267.

but looking closer we find that

the future Edward II, was born at Edward's new castle at Caernarfon in 1284. He became the first English Prince of Wales in 1301

  • 1301 is the date after which that title entered the English language. At that date it read "Prince of the Welsh people", and only after that date could "Wales" become the name of the country.

  • @Laure SO - Écoute-nous made very interesting comments under this question, pointing out that the French terms for Welsh existed well before that date as early as 1170-1176: 1170 adj. fém. galesche (Chr. de Troyes, Erec et Enide, éd. M. Roques, 5321); 1176 adj. et subst. galois (Id., Cligès, éd. A. Micha, 1437 et 1794). **Dér. de Galles, région de l'ouest de la Grande-Bretagn**e; suff. -ois*. Fréq. abs. littér. : 31. - here.

  • The last part of the above (Dér. de Galles), is problematic; if Galles as name of the country is a transliteration from Wales (after 1301), then the French terms from Chrétien de Troyes cannot derive from that French name; in the linked source the French terms galesche/galois (noun and adjective) of 1170-6 are said to be a derivation of Galles, a region of the Great Britain: either this is not true, or these old French terms for Welsh people are derivations from Galles, but that "Galles" didn't mean the region or the country, but the very people (just like in the English etymology from this answer by Bilkokuya)

here:

 Latin > Old German          Old/Saxon English      Anglo-Norman/Modern English
 Before 500 BC               Before 1066            After 1066           After 1301
 ...................................................................................
 Volcae -> Walhaz (people) -> Wælas (people)     -> Wales (people)     -> Wales (country)
                           -> Wælisc (adjective) -> Welsh (adjective)  -> Welsh (people & adjective)

The Old English Wælas meaning the Welsh people had as adjective Wælisc. The first evolved into the Anglo-Norman noun Wales (name of the people, not of the country — there wasn't one), and the latter into Welsh (adjective, not name/noun). Maybe that the terms entered French at this point - before the creation of the title Prince of Wales - like so:

 Old/Saxon English      Anglo-Norman/FRENCH          FRENCH                           FRENCH
 Before 1066            After 1066                 Before 1301                        After 1301
 ......................................................................................................
 Wælas (people)    -> Wales/Galles(people) ->------------------------------------> Galles (country)   
                                           -> Galois/fem.galesche (people+adj.) -> Gal(l)ois (people+adj.)
 Wælisc (adjective) -> Welsh

  • The above is related also to the question whether in Pays de Galles: is "Galles" a plural?

  • That question was triggered after a comment by @Papa Poule indicating another CNRTL source: here - click third tab "GALLES, subst. masc. plur." — look for Galles, subst. masc. plur.Synon. de Gaulois.Les Galles (...) avaient les pieds fort plats (Senancour, Obermann, t. 1, 1840, p. 100). which shows Galles as a synonym of Gauls (!!!) and throws a new light on my old problem about Wales in Romanian.

cipricus
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    The name is explained on wikipedia (Germanic W became G in French and other Romance languages. The adjective gallois (which is also the name of the inhabitants) seems to have first been used in the 12th c. – None Nov 25 '19 at 14:20
  • @LaureSO-Écoute-nous - if a French term for the people is in Chrétien de Troyes, then it predates the title "Prince of Wales" (which would translate in present French as "Prince des Gallois") which is the base for the name of the country. Would you care posting an answer? The Wikipedia link is not giving an answer, but the CNRTL one might. – cipricus Nov 25 '19 at 14:30
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    I'm not a specialist concerning Old French but I can tell Galois is indeed found in Chrétien de Troyes. This entry Gallois with a quotation from Froissart in Lacurne's dictionary might be of interest to you as well. – None Nov 25 '19 at 16:04
  • @LaureSO-Écoute-nous - based on your comment — je vais essayer de concocter une réponse moi-même :) On the other hand I 'll have to wait a bit, as I don't know anything about the full title "Prince de Galles" just yet. Given the presence of an old French term for the Welsh people, and given « de Galles » doesn’t seem based on that, it can only be a transliteration of Wales/Walles. I don’t think Galles meant anything in French before that. – cipricus Nov 25 '19 at 16:19
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    You don't mention it in this question (and it's not of any great importance), but in the linked Linguistics question you state, albeit parenthetically, that "... similar to the French Galles (Pays de Galles,where Galles is not a plural, like [it is] in Romanian, ... ." Based on my interpretation of this TLFi/CNRTL entry for Galles, however, I'm not convinced that "Galles is [in fact] not a plural." (click the "GALLES, subst. masc. plur." tab. – Papa Poule Nov 25 '19 at 16:20
  • @PapaPoule - What I meant is "de Galles" is not a plural in the sense "des Gaulois" or "des Gallois" is (like in Romanian, where Tara Galilor means "Country of the Gauls"). Etymologically it is a plural though. Your link interests me greatly concerning the Romanian form: REM. 1. Galles, subst. masc. plur.Synon. de Gaulois.Les Galles (...) avaient les pieds fort plats (Senancour, Obermann, t. 1, 1840, p. 100). because it seems to explain the odd Romanian form. – cipricus Nov 25 '19 at 16:31
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    @PapaPoule - do you think that "Pays de Galles" meant in French "Pays des Gallois"? instead of just being a transliteration of Wales? Why then de and not des? – cipricus Nov 25 '19 at 16:33
  • @PapaPoule - very important for me is this: considering your CNRTL link — do you think that the form Galles subst. masc. plur.Synon. de Gaulois is present in the name of the country Pays de Galles so that the later could stand as a justified basis for a translation as Pays des Gaulois, "Country of the Gauls?" That is very hard for me to believe. – cipricus Nov 25 '19 at 16:44
  • I'm not a native speaker of French, but I have seen "de" alone (not "des") used, whether correctly or not, before plural nouns (e.g. "pays d'Indiens"/pays de merveilles") – Papa Poule Nov 25 '19 at 16:46
  • Personally, I think "Pays de Galles" could even mean "Pays des GALLES" (without having to go through the synonymous step of "Pays des GALLOIS") to mean "Country of the Gauls." If any of what I'm saying is true, the French way of saying it would be more in line with the Romanian way, which would make the Romanian way "less" unique. Although I'm not sure it addresses this point (i.e., "de" before plural nouns) specifically, this wonderful discussion of "de" in French does mention "de' before plural nouns when separated by an adjective. – Papa Poule Nov 25 '19 at 17:04
  • @PapaPoule - the de before a plural is not hard to grasp: it means "made of" or "full of" multiple elements (https://www.francaisfacile.com/exercices/exercice-francais-2/exercice-francais-61719.php), while the possessive meaning can only be done with de before singular and des before plural. I have posted a specific question on Pays de Galles though: https://french.stackexchange.com/q/40426/3728 In nobiliar titles like Prince de Galles , which is the basis for Pays de Galles the possessive meaning is clear. – cipricus Nov 25 '19 at 17:12
  • @PapaPoule "de' before plural nouns when separated by an adjective: de in that case (de longs cheveaux) is not a preposition, but an article: from des cheveaux longs it loses the s in de longs cheveaux because that s is the same as that in longs**. What we are discussing above is a preposition: Prince de Galles - similar to L'origine. Du vin de Bordeaux. – cipricus Nov 25 '19 at 17:31
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    @PapaPoule - with your last CNRTL link you might have provided an unexpected clue to the origin of the Romanian name of Wales! – cipricus Nov 25 '19 at 19:34
  • @PapaPoule - :) Centre National de Ressources Textuelles et Lexicales – cipricus Nov 26 '19 at 13:42
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    Your question seems to be based on an incorrect proposition — that a country can't have a name before it has a ruler. Italy and Germany were united in 1860 and 1871, respectively, but the names Italy and Germany existed long before then, and they did not mean the Italian and the German people; they meant regions of Europe. – Peter Shor Jan 03 '22 at 11:27
  • (Continued) See the Ngram The word Italie existed in French long before 1860, and it did not mean the inhabitants of the region (those were Italiens). – Peter Shor Jan 03 '22 at 11:34
  • On the origin of the Welsh and History of Wales, including Princes of Wales – mins Nov 07 '22 at 23:18

1 Answers1

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As far as the "Galles" part goes, a group called the Gauls emigrated from near England to what is now called France, so the derivation of "Gallic" and related words as used today stems from there.

ifitnonietzsche
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    The Gauls came from North of the Alps not from "near England". And from what the OP says he already knows that the name Gaul derives from Germanic walha (The Germanic w- is regularly rendered as gu- / g- in French ). – None Nov 26 '19 at 06:44