Why is Eastern Switzerland called Suisse orientale in French?

Question

I know this is a very niche question, but I live in Eastern Switzerland (German: Ostschweiz) and my colleague needed to translate that into French.

All Google results say it's called “Suisse orientale” in French. This was a bit funny to me, because I started to think of Aladdin and flying carpets. Anyone who has ever been to Eastern Switzerland knows we have as much in common with the orient as a snowy mountain with a sand dune.

I was expecting the translation to be “Suisse Est” or something else with Est. Does anybody know why it is “Suisse orientale”?

Nothing specific to Switzerland: Belgium has 2 provinces called very officially Flandre occidentale and Flandre orientale. — Greg, Oct 17 '19 at 10:01
@JeremyGrand At least in modern usage (past around the middle of the 20th century,) "the Orient" has normally referred to Eastern and Southeastern Asia, not the Middle East. Granted, prior to the 1800s, the term did refer to the Middle East. — reirab, Oct 18 '19 at 06:34
@walen In English, "Oriental" is just the adjective form of "Orient," meaning "of or from the Orient" (i.e. East/Southeast Asia in modern usage.) And, in every language I'm aware of, they have the same common root, from the Latin for 'East'/'Eastern,' as Laurent's answer describes. — reirab, Oct 18 '19 at 07:03
@Greg: Funnily enough, East Flanders (Flandre orientale) is in the western half of Flanders. — Flater, Oct 18 '19 at 08:40
I can not think of any context where "Eastern" in english does not translate to "Oriental(e)". So this is as literal as it gets. — Alexis, Oct 18 '19 at 09:19
Just look up the adjectives for cardinal directions, they're directly from latin wind directions: Easterly/Westerly/Northerly/Southerly (wind) is Oriental/Occidental/Septentrional/Meridional [meri-diem: mid-day: (where the sun is in) the middle of the day]. — user3445853, Oct 18 '19 at 11:03
@Alexis East Germany >>> Allemagne de l'Est not Allemagne orientale. — Quora Feans, Oct 19 '19 at 15:04
@Quora But East Germany is not eastern Germany. Allemagne de l’Est is East Germany; would Allemagne orientale not simply be eastern Germany (i.e., l’est de l’Allemagne)? — Janus Bahs Jacquet, Oct 20 '19 at 01:22
@Flater Plenty of those regions are a bit oddly named due to historical reasons. For example, one of the provinces from the Netherlands bordering Belgium is called North Brabant, but it's one of the most southern provinces. The rest of Brabant is in Flanders, but it's not called South Brabant. — Mast, Oct 20 '19 at 16:01
@Mast: North Brabant makes sense as it is the northern part of the Brabant region (where in NL Brabant lies is irrelevant). By that same account, "northern Florida" wouldn't be expected to be in the northern half of the US either, just as long as it's the northern region of Florida. However, East Flanders not being in the eastern half of Flanders doesn't follow that same logic. — Flater, Oct 20 '19 at 16:10

score 40 · Accepted Answer · edited Oct 17 '19 at 10:13

40

The adjective "oriental(e)" designates something situated to the east, the orient.

The adjective "occidental(e)" designates something situated to the west, the occident

Sure you could call it "Suisse de l'est", but using the appropriate adjective is more elegant and in this case is not really ambiguous. For example in French, middle-east is not called "moyen-est", but "moyen-orient".

If one of your friend from another region would describe you as "Mon ami suisse oriental", there indeed could be a certain confusion, but that's another story.

edited Oct 17 '19 at 10:13

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answered Oct 17 '19 at 09:46

Laurent S.

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weird but funny. Merci de m'avoir expliqué – SimonS Oct 17 '19 at 10:14
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En France, on connait aussi les départements des Pyrénées, orientales pour le 66, à l'est donc, anciennement Roussillon. Curieusement (ou pas) celles de l'Ouest (64) sont dites atlantiques – MC68020 Oct 17 '19 at 12:44
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To remember which is which, in french "occire" (from latin "occidere") means "tuer". "L'occident" is where the sun dies, so the west. (That's how I remember it anyway!) – Pierre Oct 17 '19 at 12:46
@Pierre : Absolument. Et symétriquement pour l'orient : oriens ppres de orior : se lever / naître. – MC68020 Oct 17 '19 at 12:51
@Pierre > So in order to remember this you need to remember an other (and much less used) word? I actually use "proche-orient" to remember it as I know that it's east of us (or me, at least). – Laurent S. Oct 17 '19 at 13:35
As I said, that's how I remember. The concept of naming places "orient" and "occident" has always been confusing for me, as it is relative. But the sun moves the same direction for everyone. It comes down to the fact that I know what "occire" means, but I always have to deduct what "occident" means. I made that comment for the trivia and in case it helps someone whose brain would be wired like mine :) – Pierre Oct 17 '19 at 15:12
@Pierre yeah sorry my first sentence is useless. Indeed if you remember it that way, then at least for you it IS a good mnemonic, and why not for others... – Laurent S. Oct 17 '19 at 15:20
@Pierre. Occidere means "to fall", not "to kill". – fdb Oct 17 '19 at 18:09
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As a side note, we also use Septentrional for "North" and Méridional for "South", even though its less common. – Richard Oct 18 '19 at 05:50
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@fdb The latin verb has multiple meanings indeed, "to die" and "to kill" are one of them. When used about stars it does mean "to lie down", "to fall" or "to set" though. In french, "occire" only means "to kill". – Pierre Oct 18 '19 at 09:08
Interestingly enough, East Germany was called "Allemagne de l'Est" (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9publique_d%C3%A9mocratique_allemande) and not "Allemagne orientale". Maybe that was influenced by "East Germany" and "Ostdeutschland"? Or maybe "oriental(e)" is slightly archaic (although less so than "septentrional(e)" and "meridional(e)")? – rob74 Oct 18 '19 at 09:55
@rob74 : Peut-être à cause des Ostro-Goths et des Wisi-Goths ;-) – MC68020 Oct 18 '19 at 10:16
@Mast Be my guest, use them. They are wrong in contexts like: eastern Switzerland. It would be an outright mistake to use oriental there in English. What I am saying is simply not controversial. The answer is confusing unless one really knows English usage. orient and occident in English should not really be there. – Lambie Oct 20 '19 at 16:14

Laurent G. · Answer 2 · 2019-10-17T11:29:09.217

As a french native speaker living in Suisse romande, I can confirm that suisse orientale is commonly understood and used to speak of the east part of Switzerland (St-Gallen, Graubünden,...).

Though most of time, the whole german part of Switzerland is seen as suisse allemande for the people in suisse romande. As I lived in Zurich, I noticed that the differenciation between Ostschweiz, Zentralschweiz, etc. is mostly used by german swiss people themself. Probably because, the accent and dialect changes depending if you comes from Bern, St-Gallen, Zürich, etc.

score 5 · Answer 3 · answered Oct 18 '19 at 13:03

The short answer is that oriental is the adjective associated to the noun est. “Eastern X” and “X oriental(e)” are in straightforward correspondance.

In French, you can't just take a noun and use it as an adjective. You often need to add or change a suffix, and sometimes more than that. There is no adjective built directly on est¹.

It's very common for “basic” nouns and verbs to have evolved continuously from Latin (formation populaire), and for more “fancy” terms to have been introduced during the Middle-Ages in a form that's a lot closer to the Latin (formation savante). There's a somewhat similar phenomenon in English with basic words of Germanic origin and fancy words of Romance origin. The cardinal directions in French (est, ouest, nord, sud) actually come from English (or more precisely Anglo-Saxon), and can be considered formations populaires. They have associated adjectives that come from the names of the cardinal directions in Latin: oriental (from oriens), occidental (from occidens), septentrional (from Septentrio), méridional (from meridies). The adjectives oriental and occidental are the “normal” adjectives for east and west. Méridional is a little less used, with sud being more common as an adjective or apposed noun¹. Septentrional is rarely used and there is an adjective nordique, but this adjective is mostly used only with the same meaning as Nordic in English, referring specifically to the Nordic countries.

Other constructions would be possible, for example “Suisse de l'est” (like Corse-du-Sud, Corée du Sud) or “Est-Suisse” (like Nord-Kivu). But “Suisse orientale” follows a common and (to a French speaker) unremarakable pattern, like Pyrénées-Orientales, Flandre-Orientale and Flandre-Occidentale,

¹ _{The word est is sometimes classified as an adjective in expressions like “la rive est” (the east coast/bank) and “le versant est” (the east flank [of a mountain]), but I think it would be more accurate to classify it as a noun in apposition, since it is invariable. Adjectives normally agree with the noun in French.}

There's also sudiste, an adjective built directly on sud, but it mostly refers to the Confederates during the US Civil War, and sometimes their modern sympathisers. Likewise with nordistes. — Eau qui dort, Oct 18 '19 at 13:56
@Eauquidort But does it ever mean “of the south” or “from the south”, as opposed to “partisan of the south”? — Gilles 'SO nous est hostile', Oct 18 '19 at 14:13
Depends on how strict you want your criterion to be. I mostly commented because it overlaps with Northern and Southern in English (ie the Southern offensive on Northern positions -> L'assaut sudiste sur les positions nordistes) — Eau qui dort, Oct 18 '19 at 15:25

score 4 · Answer 4 · edited Jun 17 '20 at 09:38

https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/oriental_orientale_orientaux/56472

Définitions :

Qui est situé à l'est : La côte orientale de la Corse.

Relatif à l'Orient : Peuples orientaux.

Qui est propre à l'Orient, à sa culture, ses traditions : Musique orientale.

Qui est digne de l'Orient, tel qu'il est imaginé dans la culture occidentale : Luxe oriental.

Here is the first definition that is pertinent: Qui est situé à l'est (Who is located in the east).

Why is Eastern Switzerland called Suisse orientale in French?

4 Answers4