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Which of the following would be best practice, and why and according to whom?

  1. Alice says, “Bob said, ‘Hello’ ” and she smiles at the memory.
  2. Alice says, “Bob said, ‘Hello’, ” and she smiles at the memory.
  3. Alice says, “Bob said, ‘Hello,’ ” and she smiles at the memory.
  4. Alice says, “Bob said, ‘Hello,’ ,” and she smiles at the memory.

Presumably (1) is wrong. (3) I like on aesthetic grounds, but I can’t think of a principle that would choose (3) over (2) or vice-versa. (4) seems pedantic and ugly to me; unfortunately it also seems sensible, in a way.

tchrist
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brianyin99
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    Not liking Alice says "Bob said 'Hello'" and she smiles at the memory? You can check style guides but most focus on academic writing not prose fiction (except The New Yorker's eccentric version maybe). Otherwise, you can do what you like. – Stuart F Nov 23 '23 at 09:46
  • Mostly they look a bit American to me. As a Brit, I'd just write Alice says "Bob said Hello", and she smiles at the memory and be done with it. Actually, I probably wouldn't capitalize "hello", though. Reported speech within reported speech seems pointless here. – FumbleFingers Nov 23 '23 at 13:24
  • The commas before reported speech are not part of Canadian English, and I don't think they are usual in American English either. – DJClayworth Nov 23 '23 at 15:04
  • @FumbleFingers I don't think there is any AmE/BrE difference here at all...But I guess we all need to watch out for "edge cases". – Lambie Nov 23 '23 at 15:11
  • @Lambie: Ameicans tend to put punctuation inside the quoted text - it's only that which allows them to even consider OP's #4. Obviously no Brit would (even briefly) entertain the idea of two consecutive commas! – FumbleFingers Nov 23 '23 at 15:18
  • @FumbleFingers The commas in those sentences are all wrong by any standard, especially after Alice says and Bob said. Geesus – Lambie Nov 23 '23 at 15:21
  • @Lambie: Geesus? Is that supposed to imply exasperation with my ignorant comment? The point of which was to remind people that all Anglophones have moved towards less and lighter punctuation over the past century and more. But on average, Americans have been more reluctant than Brits to go down that path. – FumbleFingers Nov 23 '23 at 15:27
  • @FumbleFingers Exasperation is allowed but no one said anything about ignorant. – Lambie Nov 23 '23 at 15:38
  • @Lambie: Well, I have no idea what other (negative?) attribute you see in my comment that exasperates you. But in passing, I will just mention that the percentage of written material Anglophones encounter today *that's written in a clearly legible type-face* is obviously much higher than it was a century or two ago. I suggest that inter alia, this in and of itself is relevant to use of punctuation (as is the trend to short, less "ornate" sentences). In such circumstances, we should expect less punctuation, because it's less necessary as an aid to the beleaguered reader. – FumbleFingers Nov 23 '23 at 16:56
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    @FumbleFingers: I'd say (1) and (3) are the only ones that look at all American. (2) looks British to me (our style guides say never to put commas after quotation marks, although I don't always follow that advice), and (4) is what you might expect from a computer programmer. – Peter Shor Nov 23 '23 at 17:26
  • @PeterShor: Haha - good point about "what you might expect from a computer programmer"! But I certainly see what you mean about #2 looking the most British. We kinda need at least something to help the reader transition from that "quote within a quote" to "conventional narrative" *...and she smiles at the memory.* And we can't use the (single or double) closing quote marks for that, because they're the cause of orthographic distraction in the first place, so that's version #1 straight out of the window! Of what remains, #2 is the "lightest" punctuation, to my eye. – FumbleFingers Nov 23 '23 at 17:44
  • @FumbleFingers Would you rather any of these? 5. Alice says “Bob said hello,” and she smiles at the memory. 6. Alice says “Bob said hello”, and she smiles at the memory. 7. Alice says “Bob said hello” and smiles at the memory. 8. Alice says “Bob said, ‘Hello’, ” and smiles at the memory. 9. Alice says “Bob said, ‘Hello’ ” and smiles at the memory. 10. Alice says “Bob said hello” – and smiles at the memory. – tchrist Nov 24 '23 at 00:20
  • @tchrist: Yeah - your #6 there matches what I put in my first comment. Apart from mine having capitalized Hello because I cut&pasted from OP, which I said I'd probably change). It's a bizarre combination of tenses, though, which I find quite distracting. I bet Alice said* "Bob says Hello", and she smiled at the memory* (with names changed to protect the innocent! :) has occurred far more often in the real world over the years. – FumbleFingers Nov 24 '23 at 11:28
  • @FumbleFingers "Is that supposed to imply exasperation with my ignorant comment?" You said ignorant, not me. – Lambie Nov 24 '23 at 17:49

2 Answers2

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What did Bob say? "Hello." — probably with a period after it. One convention (I believe there are others) is to turn periods into commas when you quote text and the period doesn't fall at the end of a sentence, so

Alice says, "Bob said, 'Hello,'" and she smiles at the memory.

is a perfectly good way to write it.

You need a comma after "Hello" because it's a complete sentence (maybe it's not technically a sentence, but it's a complete utterance). However, using two commas after "Hello" is just perverse.

Peter Shor
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  • Thanks Peter! Isn't it good practice to introduce quotes with either a comma or a colon? I can convince myself that you don't need the comma before indirect speech (it seems to me that people usually mean indirect speech as opposed to direct speech by the term reported speech; this usage diverges from the usage on this thread so I'm becoming more confused) b/c it's like any other verb + direct object. But it still looks to me like it's convention to use some punctuation or other to introduce quoted stuff. Thoughts? – brianyin99 Nov 23 '23 at 22:52
  • @brianyin99: I had somehow thought the comma was optional for very short pieces of dialog, but I am not so sure now; looking online, there always seems to be a comma in "He said, 'Hello.'" Changing my answer. – Peter Shor Nov 23 '23 at 22:58
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    The second she is superfluous because it’s the same subject, so if I had any say in it I would change she says…and she smiles to read she says…and smiles. Once the second subject is gone it goes from a compound sentence with two conjoined independent clauses to a simpler one with a single subject sharing a now-compound predicate, at which point few(er?) editors would demand an extra comma—one hopes. :) – tchrist Nov 24 '23 at 00:24
  • @tchrist that's elegant, thanks! – brianyin99 Nov 24 '23 at 06:01
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There is absolutely no need for the commas before the reported speech. Either of them.

The best version of this sentence is:

Alice says "Bob said 'Hello,'" and she smiles at the memory.

You could also write

Alice says "Bob said 'Hello,'", and she smiles at the memory.

This is completely in agreement with a version that doesn't use reported speech. Either of the following would be acceptable.

Alice passes on Bob's greeting and she smiles at the memory.

Alice passes on Bob's greeting, and she smiles at the memory.

DJClayworth
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