I was taught to pronounce the oo in either afternoon or noon as /u:/ ~~the oo in nook~~ until I found some native speakers pronounce the noon sounding like new-n (videos). But the AmE IPA in the dictionary labels it as /nu:n/, instead of what I thought it as /nju:n/ if it's pronounced new-n. To my surprise, the IPA of new is /nu:/ rather than /nju:/. If /u:/ is equivalent to /ju:/, so why the word moon, whose IPA is /mu:n/, is not pronounced as mew-n?
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tchrist
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Guoyang Qin
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I suspect there is a combination rule applied when /n/ meets /ju:/ and contracts as /mu:/. – Guoyang Qin Apr 14 '21 at 17:33
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18I pronounce moon and noon with the same vowel. – Kate Bunting Apr 14 '21 at 17:37
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5I think you're talking about the diphthong that distinguishes *beaut* (short for "beautiful") from *boot. But neither noon* nor *moon* are enunciated using the diphthong corresponding to *you, ewe,* the letter 'u'. – FumbleFingers Apr 14 '21 at 17:40
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In BrE the pronunciation of 'oo' is regional, but some words vary, and others don't. – Weather Vane Apr 14 '21 at 17:40
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3For /nu:/ or /nju:/, check whether that source claims to be US or UK pronunciation. – GEdgar Apr 14 '21 at 17:44
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2I've been all over the Anglosphere, and I've never, ever heard of anyone pronouncing 'moon' like 'new-n'. I want to know where this was heard by @GuoyangQin. – Michael Harvey Apr 14 '21 at 19:08
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@Michael-Harvey, I didn't mean I heard people pronounced mewn. I just use this word as a contrast to the word noon, and emphasize why both of them share the vowel /u:/ in their AmE IPAs, but only noon can pronounce like nju:n, the moon cannot. – Guoyang Qin Apr 15 '21 at 03:07
2 Answers
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I was taught to pronounce the oo in either afternoon or noon as the oo in nook
That was poor teaching - it is wrong.
Standard pronunciation:
noon, n.Brit. /nuːn/; U.S. /nun/;
moon, n.Brit. /muːn/; U.S. /mun/
nook, n. Brit. /nʊk/, U.S. /nʊk/ (some dialects pronounce as /nuːk/ particularly parts of Scotland - but this is non-standard.)
until I found native speakers pronounce the noon sounding like new-n.
[Newn] is non-standard or dialect - you need to say where these "native speakers" are from.
The "y" sound ([j]) found in "new" - nyew - is know as the intrusive y and is a feature of English.
Greybeard
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Thanks for your answer. In my OALD app, AmE IPAs of (after)noon and moon are labeled as /nu:n/ and /mu:n/, where the audio of the pronunciation of /nu:n/ sounds like new-n (www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/afternoon). Noon sounds like new-n too in M-W (www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/afternoon). I also check videos with "good afternoon" (youglish.com/pronounce/Good%20Afternoon/english/us?), some of them pronounced like new-n. – Guoyang Qin Apr 14 '21 at 18:05
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@GuoyangQin Have a look at Word Reference Forums for the entry in their dictionary for "noon", "moon", "nook" and "new". (https://www.wordreference.com/definition/noon) You will find all of the words pronounced in various versions of English. You will not find "new-n" – Greybeard Apr 14 '21 at 18:17
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1@Greybeard: that's only because the dictionaries are reporting the "standard pronunciation", which is not necessarily how all people actually pronounce things. Some Americans say newn and not noon. – Peter Shor Apr 14 '21 at 19:00
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3Possibly what's confusing is that some (many?) Americans pronounce "new" not as /njuː/ but as /nu/, hence when we say that "noon" sounds like "new" + n, we mean it sounds like the American /nu/ + /n/, not like the British /nju:/ + /n/. – shoover Apr 15 '21 at 04:28
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In much of the U.S., /u:/ and /ju:/ have merged after /t/, /d/, and /n/.
That means if you pronounce noon as /nju:n/, people will still understand you, and probably won't even notice you're pronouncing it differently than they do. I don't know if I've heard people use /ju:/ after /n/, but I've definitely heard it after /d/ and /t/. This is generally called yod-dropping, which would imply that the /j/ is dropped, but it might be more useful to think of it as a merger, as there are some people who pronounce both due and do (when it's stressed( as /dju:/.
On the other hand, these two phonemes have only merged after some consonants, and not after others like /m/, /p/, /b/, /f/, /k/, and /h/; if you pronounce moon as /mju:n/, you're much less likely to be understood; in fact the two words moot /mu:t/ and mute /mju:t/ are distinguished by the /j/, and if you say “it's a mute issue,” it's not clear you'll be understood.
Finally, the 'oo' is nook is a different phoneme than is in either mute or moot.
Peter Shor
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Thanks for your answer. yod-dropping is a helpful explanation and interesting phenomenon. Just wondering why adding /j/ sound after some consonants like /n/, /d/, /t/ doesn't feel quite different. Namely, newn and noon, due and do, tune and toon sounds closer (heard the audio multiple times I began to be unsure of which sound they had pronounced), or more unnoticeable as you suggested, than say mewn and moon, beaut and boot, mute and moot. – Guoyang Qin Apr 15 '21 at 02:42
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@Richard: Most people pronounce the merged vowel /u/, but some people pronounce it /ju/. And I think these people are the ones the OP's hearing and is puzzled by. For merged phonemes, sometimes both pronunciations are valid. – Peter Shor Jun 13 '21 at 11:32