3

If it were not for em-dash, we would no doubt keep the subordinating comma:

"It was only to be expected that Troy should fall — and fall emphatically, its very location effaced and, for millennia, forgotten —, because the Gods and heroes on the Greek side were among the most powerful in the Greek pantheon."

— modified from Understanding appositives and the use of the m-dash ( — )

ps thanks to Dinesh Kumar, for shortening the title. However, I don't see which 40 characters were added to the body. Can you assist?

pps other threads along this line have not resolved this particular point about using both em-dashes and the subordinating single comma. I retain this thread, because it is an example that cannot be fixed by simply moving the subordinate clause, or by dropping punctuation.

Community
  • 1
Wiki-o
  • 39
  • This is a pair of parenthetical-marking commas (or dashes). The choice between commas, dashes and brackets (and, rarely, zero punctuation) to set off parentheticals has been answered before. – Edwin Ashworth Aug 15 '16 at 10:23
  • No quite. The choices previously examined have only dealt with the clear choice between, and not situations that seem to call for a mixed approach. Still waiting on that... – Wiki-o Aug 18 '16 at 17:41
  • 2
    Possible duplicate of Can em dashes be used to isolate clauses starting with an “or”? and [http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/4522/parentheses-vs-double-commas-vs-dashes-to-provide-additional-detail](http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/4522/parentheses-vs-double-commas-vs-dashes-to-provide-additional-detail]. – Edwin Ashworth Aug 18 '16 at 18:52
  • The comma is subsumed by the second dash. The duplicates give examples where no double-punctuation is countenanced. – Edwin Ashworth Aug 18 '16 at 18:54
  • To subsume the comma creates an ambiguity — though precisely not in those duplicate threads, where the double use is not not countenanced, but simply worked around. – Wiki-o Aug 18 '16 at 22:48
  • ... Please give an example. – Edwin Ashworth Aug 18 '16 at 22:58
  • I don't yet argue for the comma, but leaving it out may lead some readers to miss, and others to introduce, that pause which sometime accompanies a subordinate clause: "If you look at that gift horse — to borrow a Greek adage — when you return home, you will find it full of surprises." – Wiki-o Aug 18 '16 at 23:09
  • 1
    Possible duplicate of Can I write a comma followed by an em-dash? and How is punctuation used after dashes? and em-dash and comma, which comes first. – Sven Yargs Aug 18 '16 at 23:09
  • exactly so, Edwin, and it isn't appropriate. I want no pause at all between looking at the horse and returning home. – Wiki-o Aug 18 '16 at 23:14
  • However I agree that http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/134031/em-dash-and-comma-which-comes-first is a true duplicate, and I upvote Cerberus treatment. – Wiki-o Aug 18 '16 at 23:15
  • The sentence is getting too garden-pathy here for any remedial punctuation. I've not thought of a way of tracking down internet examples of parenthetical followed by subordinator, but I know I've never seen double punctuation of the dash+comma variety in such situations. – Edwin Ashworth Aug 18 '16 at 23:19
  • Actually, there's a more serious problem with the original. << It was only to be expected that Troy should fall, because the Gods and heroes on the Greek side were among the most powerful in the Greek pantheon. And it fell emphatically, its very location being effaced and, for millennia, forgotten.>> is acceptable. The original entails <<It was only to be expected that Troy should fall emphatically, its very location being effaced and, for millennia, forgotten.>> , which doesn't make sense. And 'modified' is stretching it. – Edwin Ashworth Aug 18 '16 at 23:37
  • Essentially, the answer is that such a situation should never arise. Using a parenthetical before a reason clause where disambiguation is required as to what it's the reason for (etc) should be avoided, or at worst utilise parentheses. – Edwin Ashworth Aug 19 '16 at 23:40

1 Answers1

1

It is a question of style:

Em dashes in place of commas

A pair of em dashes can be used in place of commas to enhance readability. Note, however, that dashes are always more emphatic than commas.

  • And yet, when the car was finally delivered—nearly three months after it was ordered—she decided she no longer wanted it, leaving the dealer with an oddly equipped car that would be difficult to sell.

From the Gramnarist;

  • Em dashes set apart parenthetical phrases or clauses in a sentence. In this use, em dashes are similar to commas and parentheses, but there are subtle differences.

  • For example, em dashes are used when a parenthetical remark contains an internal comma or would otherwise sound awkward if enclosed by commas.

  • Perhaps a useful way to think of the em dash is as a pause or parenthesis with somewhat more emphasis than a comma and somewhat less than parentheses. Here are a few examples of em dashes used well for this purpose:

    • Steely Dan’s title track to FM—a justly forgotten, Robert Altman-inspired 1978 comedy that tries to pass off Foreigner, Foghat, and REO Speedwagon as paragons of rock rebellion—initially sounds like an extension of that movie’s middle-of-the-road sounds. [AV Club].
  • The article from the Grammarist doesn't consider the exact issue here, which arises not when we have a choice, but when both marks are seemingly required. – Wiki-o Aug 15 '16 at 11:02