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I heard an American speaking on the BBC World at One news this lunchtime, about the Greek debt. He was arguing that the character of a lot of Greece's debt is quite different to that of other debtor nations and that if comparable accounting methods were used they would be able to claim a debt level of less than 20% of GDP. (This is quite a radical opinion and not one accepted by the IMF, incidentally.)

He then made a statement the syntax of which made me sit up from eating my lunch. He said If they would have recognised this it would have saved them a lot of trouble. Personally I would have said If they had recognised this, it would have.... But then I thought that maybe because he was using an if clause, then it justified would.

Do others have views on this?

WS2
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    It's common enough, and often taught as "more formal" or something. What it is, though, is part of an ongoing pattern of erstwhile "subjunctive" constructions being replaced with modal auxiliary constructions, leaving more regular syntax and less irregular morphology behind. Eventually there will be no morphology left in English; everything will be auxiliaries, articles, prepositions, particles, and eventually clitics. Like Chinese. Morphology serves very little purpose in English any more, and -- as we here at ELU.SE know very well -- is largely ignored by many learners. – John Lawler Apr 08 '15 at 16:11
  • @JohnLawler I would be interested to read some examples of this 'morphology-free' English which you are predicting, John. – WS2 Apr 08 '15 at 16:26
  • It ain't here yet but if you want harbingers, read the Questions. – John Lawler Apr 08 '15 at 16:29
  • To the OP: your version is the correct one. The "if they would" is less correct, as shown by many American Language Boards, but is tolerated, but much less in the UK. * means incorrect. See https://books.google.ca/books?id=WCCk829jmzUC&pg=PA8&dq=%22if+would%22+grammar+correct&hl=en&sa=X&ei=A3UlVcbOHJb_sATYtIHgCw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%22if%20would%22%20grammar%20correct&f=false – Marius Hancu Apr 08 '15 at 18:37

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The problem is that this is the use of the subjunctive (which is often poorly used, particularly in American speech). Any sentence that starts with "if" is generally a good indicator that the subjunctive is about to be needed.

The correct sentence would probably be:

If they were to have recognized this, it would have saved them a lot of trouble.

Cord
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  • But it seems to work fine with If they would only have recognised this... – WS2 Apr 08 '15 at 16:23
  • @WS2 That is typically only because we normally hear the indicative construction. "If only they were to have recognized this..." sets up the contradiction (which is what the subjunctive is best at) that they did not in fact recognize the fact. – Cord Apr 08 '15 at 16:29
  • I'm having trouble recognising If only they were to have recognised this as idiomatic. But perhaps I'm one of the people @John Lawler is talking about, who are destroying morphology. But it is not me who has down voted you. I retain an open mind on the subject. – WS2 Apr 08 '15 at 16:35
  • You can't win the hearts and minds of everyone! If only I were able to... – Cord Apr 08 '15 at 16:46
  • I think If only I were able... is slightly different in that it doesn't refer to a past opportunity. – WS2 Apr 08 '15 at 17:31
  • I don't understand your answer at all (and thus I agree with the downvoter). You need to explain the difference in meaning between "if they had recognized this", "if they would have recognized this", and "if they were to have recognized this". I would have said that they all mean the same thing, but the last two are often considered ungrammatical. – Peter Shor Apr 08 '15 at 17:46
  • @WS2 If only I were able to have won the hearts and minds of everyone That seems to exactly refer to a past opportunity. I'm not sure I understand the contention. – Cord Apr 08 '15 at 19:02
  • @Peter I am not saying that the indicative is incorrect. "If they had recognized this" is not incorrect; it is the indicative of the presented statement. However, the OP wanted to know if the American's statement on the BBC was correctly presented with the if clause. In that case, no, because it was a subjunctive formation with a grammatically incorrect but relatively accepted modal "would have". – Cord Apr 08 '15 at 19:18
  • @Cord I'm afraid I cannot agree at all. I don't think If only I were able to have won the hearts and minds of everyone refers to a past condition in the if clause at all. It refers to a present condition - albeit in the subjunctive. A past condition would have required If only I had been able to have won..... – WS2 Apr 08 '15 at 20:15
  • @WS2 So what you're saying is that my provided sentence in the answer is an incorrect construction? That it does not do what the American speaker wanted to accomplish with his sentence? Just trying to refocus the comments back to the original goal... – Cord Apr 09 '15 at 02:01
  • @Cord Yes that is what I am saying. But thank you nonetheless for participating in the discussion. It all helps to focus the argument. – WS2 Apr 09 '15 at 07:06