In the Elizabethan era, "thou" was universally used as well as "you". "Thou" represents intimacy. In French, "tu" is still used. The same for German "du".
Why did "thou" become obsolete?
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Tell me the reason for the downvote. Don't worry. I won't revenge-downvote you. – ivanhoescott Oct 14 '14 at 23:59
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- Do you suspect that there indeed are vindictive members? I did experience a spate of down-votes after someone was offended by the proposals I had put forth in my answer.
– Blessed Geek Oct 15 '14 at 00:02 -
- Thou is singular nominative. Ye is the plural. Thee is accusative/dative. You is the plural.
– Blessed Geek Oct 15 '14 at 00:06 -
- I did not downvote you.
– Blessed Geek Oct 15 '14 at 00:06 -
'Thou' is still used in parts of Yorkshire. (I didn't downvote either). – Mynamite Oct 15 '14 at 00:06
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1Why does anything become obsolete? People stopped using it, just like (hopefully) 'whom.' – Ryan Oct 15 '14 at 01:41
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@Ryan "just like whom" That might be a good question. – ivanhoescott Oct 15 '14 at 01:48
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5This has been discussed here before. It was basically a sociolinguistic shift forced by concentration of capital and political power in a few hands, who made demands for "polite" speech, and later denigration of "impolite" speech. – John Lawler Oct 15 '14 at 02:11
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2Whilst it's true that most of the readership here are concerned with standard varieties of English - it should still be pointed out that thou is NOT obsolete in the North of England and in some parts of the Midlands. I also have a friend who says a hybrid between thou and you. It has the /j/ from you and the ou from ouch / thou: /jaʊ/! – Araucaria - Him Oct 15 '14 at 09:39
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1@JohnLawler Interesting. In Japan, 貴様(pronounced kisama) was very polite second person(mostly male) singular in the 16th century. Since then, it became less and less polite. Today it is used almost only when you call somebody names. – ivanhoescott Oct 15 '14 at 13:23
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@BlessedGeek Actual practice shows plenty of historic variation in which of ye/you and thou/thee get used in subject case versus oblique case. You can even find written examples by EME writers of renown where both ye and you fall into subject position in the very same sentence. – tchrist Oct 15 '14 at 14:04
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ca 1650, by then could thee have been perceived as pejorative as condescending upon the other party as insufficiently privileged to qualify to be addressed with a plural you like a deity or royalty? – Blessed Geek Oct 15 '14 at 14:21
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2The history of Quaker Plain Speech (which includes a refusal to use the plural you to a single person) got Quakers in lotsa trouble in the 17th century, and ultimately led to their founding Pennsylvania as a Quaker refuge. – John Lawler Oct 15 '14 at 17:52
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possible duplicate of Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? – ScotM Mar 10 '15 at 00:29
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@BlessedGeek My personal belief is that the social and political turmoil of 17th century England made it dangerous to insult anyone as a social inferior one week could be a superior the next. Accordingly people stopped using the first person singular to avoid giving offence. This would have been exacerbated by the existence of the Quakers and their Plain Speech. – BoldBen Aug 22 '20 at 23:56
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According to the following source it was the use of you used first mainly as a sign of respect and then both as plural and singular form of address to replace thou gradually. (From Etymonline)
Thou:
Superseded in Middle English by plural form you (from a different root), but retained in certain dialects (e.g. early Quakers). The plural at first was used in addressing superior individuals, later also (to err on the side of propriety) strangers, and ultimately all equals. By c.1450 the use of thou to address inferiors gave it a tinge of insult unless addressed by parents to children, or intimates to one another. Hence the verb meaning "to use 'thou' to a person" (mid-15c.). Avaunt, caitiff, dost thou thou me! I am come of good kin, I tell thee! ["Hickscorner," c.1530]
A brief history of the second person pronoun in English can be found here.
You:
- Pronunciation of you and the nominative form ye gradually merged from 14c.; the distinction between them passed out of general usage by 1600. Widespread use of French in England after 12c. gave English you the same association as French vous, and it began to drive out singular nominative thou, originally as a sign of respect (similar to the "royal we") when addressing superiors, then equals and strangers, and ultimately (by c.1575) becoming the general form of address. Through 13c. English also retained a dual pronoun ink "you two; your two selves; each other.
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It's generally not very polite in normal usage to refer to people with "you", to the extent that there's an obvious way not to do so. (Apparently not just a Japanese thing.)
So if there are 100 synonyms for referring to you within normal usage, very quickly the head or tail (the most polite word or the rudest word) will lose usage to a specialized meaning. After that fossilization, you are left with 99 synonyms. (<meta>Or.. one is left with 99 synonyms.)
So if there are 99 synonyms for referring to you within normal usage, very quickly the head or tail (the most polite word or the rudest word) will lose usage to a specialized meaning. After that fossilization, you are left with 98 synonyms.
"Why will 'thou' become obsolete?"
Over time, there will only be one word that can be used to refer to "you" in normal usage, if any.
Pacerier
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3Over time, there will only be one word that can be used to refer to "you" in normal usage, This raises the question of why this is not currently true for other European languages. – Greybeard Aug 22 '20 at 23:18
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@Greybeard, You might as well ask me why present-day English has one word to refer to you instead of zero. But do list the example you have in mind in order to discuss and know. The key point is not "one" (eg in Japanese there's a multitude — anta, anata, omae, kimi, sonata, otaku, anatakata, kimitachi, omaesan, etc) but is "one in normal usage". – Pacerier Aug 23 '20 at 00:42
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But do list the example you have in mind in order to discuss and know As far as I am aware, all other European language have separate second person singular and second person plural.Unfortunately, this post is not the place to enumerate and discuss. – Greybeard Aug 23 '20 at 09:03