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The last time Lara and I had been to Paris, Lara had told me all about how much you loved living in Paris.

The last time Lara and I had been Paris, she told me all about how much you loved living in Paris.

Her telling me, and our being there is at the same time at a time before the past. So, for the construction to be interpreted that way, are we to use the past perfect following the TOLD, or are to use just the simple past?

If we used the past perfect there, would the time frame mean

Her telling me how much Jenny loved living in Paris- 1st.

Our being somewhere together.- 2nd

My telling someone else what jenny had told me.-3rd. ?

lekon chekon
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    Perhaps with some additional context introducing these sentences, there might be some justification for the past perfect. With "the last time" I would expect a simple past: "The last time we were there, she told me all about..." – TimR Jun 23 '16 at 16:08
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    You seem to still be obsessed with trying to justify using Past Perfect. Mostly, you don't need it. – FumbleFingers Jun 23 '16 at 16:09
  • If Jenny had been in Paris before you visited her mother or whoever "she" is, you could say "The last time we were there, she told us how Jenny had loved living in Paris". – TimR Jun 23 '16 at 16:15
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    Using the past perfect in the introductory clause is not necessary, unless you have a reason to do so. And we can't judge how appropriate that is from one sentence. You could just say The last time we were there,... And it is natural to follow that with the simple past: she told me... – Alan Carmack Jun 23 '16 at 16:17
  • The regular past would be my telling the you (the listener) about how much you loved being in Paris. (let's say we had the conversation on the phone of extra details)

    The past before past would be how Lara and I had been to Paris the last time, before me and you (the listener) had the conversation on the phone.

     – lekon chekon Jun 23 '16 at 16:25
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    I'm popping in and out of ELL while on hold on the phone; no time for a chat, sorry. My advice, provide more context with your example sentences, that is, as part of the example, rather than as commentary. – TimR Jun 23 '16 at 16:33
  • Even after your edits, I see nothing that would suggest any reason for using Past Perfect. In general you only use it if it's necessary to make the temporal sequence of your narrative explicit. A single sentence is unlikely to give enough context anyway though. – FumbleFingers Jun 23 '16 at 16:52
  • @FumbleFingers Does this seem right to you? The last time Lara and I went to Paris, Lara told me all about how much you loved living in Paris.

    This would mean I'm talking you the listener right now. In present time, trying to tell you about how I went to Paris, and how while we were there Lara told me how much you love/loved being there. Whereas what I want to convey is, we had the conversation in the past. For which, I need to use the past perfect.

     – lekon chekon Jun 23 '16 at 16:56
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    I really don't see what you're getting at. Sure, you're speaking in the present, about something that happened in the past. That means your narrative context is in the past, but there's nothing in that narrative which needs to be explicitly identified as having happened earlier than the past time you're referencing. – FumbleFingers Jun 23 '16 at 17:01
  • Lara told me a few days ago how much you loved Paris when you visited last year. OK. Lara told me a few days ago how much you had loved Paris when you visited last year. Also OK. I was going to phone you last week and tell you how much I hated Paris, but then I remembered how Lara had told me a few months ago how you much you loved Paris when you were there. OK. I was going to phone you last week and tell you how much I hated Paris, but then I remembered how Lara had told me a few months ago how much you had loved Paris when you were there. Also OK. – TimR Jun 23 '16 at 17:26
  • Okay. Suppose this happened a long time ago. And that i'm telling it as a story to someone right now.

    It had been on the paper yesterday that the killer had killed all the people that were there at the party ( a few nights ago..would it matter if i excluded this information?) @TRomano, does this seem right to you?

     – lekon chekon Jun 23 '16 at 17:34
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    There you go again! It had been* in the paper yesterday that the killer had killed all the people. We've only got (Simple) past* and further in the past (Past Perfect), but because you've already (pointlessly) cast your narrative time further in the past with the first *had, it's no longer possible to indicate that the events actually happened some time earlier than when they were reported in the paper. You should concentrate on learning how to avoid* the Past Perfect, not how to maximize your use of it! – FumbleFingers Jun 23 '16 at 17:49
  • I see. So, there's no way to describe multiple events that have taken place at different times before a certain event. Btw, "We were all afraid thinking what might happen to us. What increased the fear was how it was on the paper yesterday.that the killer had killed..... " Doesn't this part seem weird to you? If I don't use the Had there. Plus,wouldn't you say it's pretty easy to determine what the speaker is trying to convey, from the context, at least with this construction? @FumbleFingers – lekon chekon Jun 23 '16 at 18:01
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    The thing to remember is that nobody likes repeated consecutive use of Past Perfect (and in many contexts people won't even use it once if it's not essential). Perhaps your native language has more tenses, or some other way of indicating chronological sequences. But you'll be aware that English doesn't even have a proper Future tense (sometimes we get round that using auxiliaries like *will*, but often we just use Present Tense anyway). The name of the game here is KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid! :) – FumbleFingers Jun 23 '16 at 18:08
  • @FumbleFingers, I read a lot of books. And in most of them, I come across past perfects, in like every 3-4 sentences. Like Albert Camus' the outsider. It's filled with past perfects. Although, I do acknowledge how you're right with all this. Btw, could I ask you two things about past perfects? – lekon chekon Jun 23 '16 at 18:39
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    Now you know why it was called The Outsider. But seriously, there's an infinite number of past-before-past-before-pasts possible. We were all afraid what might happen to us. That a killer was on the loose only increased our fear. He had throttled two grammarians who were attending a local conference on how to maximize use of the past perfect in everyday conversation, and get rich in the process. – TimR Jun 23 '16 at 19:21
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    If you read Camus in English, that would be a translation from French. No telling what kind of verb tenses you will find in a translation. – Alan Carmack Jun 23 '16 at 19:43
  • I have to admit that although I did actually read L’Étranger many years ago in the original French, I've absolutely no idea whether French text (that specific one, or in general) would be more (or less) likely to result in a higher-than-normal percentage of Past Perfect usages than "natural" English. – FumbleFingers Jun 23 '16 at 20:09
  • Lekon, I hope that the question marked as duplicate will help you. If not, Stoney's excellent post here should be able to answer your questions :). Please avoid engaging in extensive discussions in the comments... Instead, add all necessary information to your answer. I've already deleted about half the comments here, and there are still too many... Trying to reduce them in number without losing content, I'll keep pondering :) If this helps: your first problem is the very beginning of the sentence. Consider "The last time Laura and I were in Paris". – WendiKidd Jun 26 '16 at 01:13

1 Answers1

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In your sentence

The last time Lara and I had been to Paris
The last time Lara and I were in Paris

The first sentence could be interpreted as during or after the trip to Paris, the second sentence implies you were in Paris (when Lara told you the story)

Lara had told me all about
Lara told me all about

Lara conveyed to you a story, either past perfect or simple past has the same meaning

how much you loved living in Paris.
how much you had loved living in Paris.

in the first sentence, the person being talked about may or may not still be living in Paris, in the second sentence it is implied they no longer live in Paris.

Without further context, there are some ambiguities in your sentence.

Using too many past perfects

had been... had told... had lived...

is not grammatically incorrect, but sounds clunky.

Peter
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  • How do you convey multiple events at multiple times that have taken place before the past? – lekon chekon Jun 23 '16 at 17:22
  • "The last time Lara and I had been to Paris, Lara had told me all about how much you loved living in Paris." If I wanted to convey, Lara told me ..... even before we went to Paris, how would I do it? – lekon chekon Jun 23 '16 at 17:23
  • It might be as if you met Jenny at a cocktail party: "Lara has told me how much you love living in Paris." or "Lara told me how much you love living in Paris." You would not need to mention going to Paris. – Peter Jun 23 '16 at 17:32