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At the end of the movie Rise of the Guardians the guardians say to Jack Frost:

Then is time you take the Oath.

I have two questions concerning this sentence.

The first one is if then is time is identical to it is time.
And the second is if the verb take is present simple or present subjunctive.
What would be the verb if the subject were he, I.e. Take or takes?

StoneyB on hiatus
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Fatimahon
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1 Answers1

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Then is time you take the oath is not idiomatic English, but the English of a non-native speaker: the character who speaks this line in Rise of the Guardians is represented with a Russian (or Russian-ish) accent. Consequently, the question of how the verb should be parsed is irrelevant.

In context, after asking "Are you ready now, Jack? To make it official?", what the character presumably intends is

Then it is time for you to take the oath.

... meaning that since he is ready, the appropriate time has now arrived.

It is possible he means:

Then it is time you took the oath.

In this idiom, the past-tense took would have a modal sense: you should take the oath, you have postponed or evaded that obligation. This meaning seems to me very unlikely in context.

StoneyB on hiatus
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  • I read in some sources on the Interner that present simple is possible after it is time. But I doubt it, as I was taught that this structure is followed by past subjunctive of the verb ' be' and sppast simple of other verbs. But in one source there was a sentence with bare infinitive of the verb 'be' after it is time. It was on forums, not in grammar books. I am not a native speaker, that is why I cannot judge. – Fatimahon Feb 21 '16 at 13:37
  • And why do you think the character who says the line is not a native speaker? – Fatimahon Feb 21 '16 at 13:39
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    @Fatimahon Because he speaks with a strong stage-Russian accent. Because he omits the subject it. – StoneyB on hiatus Feb 21 '16 at 13:47
  • +1 Ah Russian, important to know. The wording makes a lot more sense, that happens a lot with Russians speaking English. I have not seen the movie. – Peter Feb 21 '16 at 13:47
  • I guess not only Russians omit the formal subject 'it'.I got really interested in the Russian accent of the character. Though I am a Russian myself, I never omit the formal subject "it" and I haven't noticed the Russian accent. Neither did my students. I will watch it again. – Fatimahon Feb 21 '16 at 13:55
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    @Fatimahon This is "stage-Russian" composed by the dialogue writer (and perhaps modified on the fly by the actor) to give an entertaining impression, not a scholarly attempt to reflect actual use of English by a native Russian speaker! – StoneyB on hiatus Feb 21 '16 at 14:01
  • Why necessarily Russian? How can we distinguish it from, for example Spanish or Italian?As a native speaker of Russian I haven't noticed the Russian accent. Maybe I was not that attentive, though. – Fatimahon Feb 21 '16 at 14:05
  • Stage-Italian (i.e. the way Italian speakers are broadly represented when speaking English in the movies) might be "Then is-a time you take-a the oath." Stage-Russian (in American movies) would normally have the Russian speaker also dropping the article "Then is time you take oath." – TimR Feb 21 '16 at 14:23
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    @Fatimahon : The vowels are similar, but Spanish and Italian are syllable-timed, while Russian is stress-timed, like English. Also phonotactics: Unlike Italian, Russian has no difficulty with word-terminal closed syllables; and the actor fully enunciates complex clusters which are ordinarily assimilated in English. There are also occasional dropped articles in the dialogue, which is characteristically Russian. – StoneyB on hiatus Feb 21 '16 at 14:49
  • By the way the article is not dropped here. The Oath is pronounced with the article. The Oath is capitalized, as Russians won't do. It is more American- like, if I can say so. Though I would not like to go into politics here.You can place any other nationality instead of Spanish or Italian. I meant why it was necessarily Russian, if you think there was a grammatical mistake.By the way can't then function as a noun ( like the word now, this topic was discussed on some forums). – Fatimahon Feb 21 '16 at 15:12
  • @Fatimahon There are dropped articles elsewhere, however; I ran across one in a YouTube clip, "That was just expression!" ... In the quote here, then is clearly an adverb = "in that case" -- since you are ready, it is time for you to take the Oath. "Oath" is capitalized in the script as a sort of stage direction to the actor: not just any oath, but The Oath of Guardianship. – StoneyB on hiatus Feb 21 '16 at 15:20
  • In this very sentence the article is not dropped, is it? Why is this sentence Russian? As a native speaker I say it is not Russian-like at all. We have an interesting programme with our Russian polyglot Dmitry Petrov who taught his students that in English- speaking countries there is a tendency to drop articles. First I was sceptic all about this, but when we watched the Horse Whisperer starring Robert Redford, it became obvious. They really omitted articles. And this movie is not a cartoon.Educated Russians treat English articles with great respect. – Fatimahon Feb 21 '16 at 16:09
  • With the meaning of then I agree, though it is written in some sources, that it can be used as a noun. But this question needs further investigation. – Fatimahon Feb 21 '16 at 16:10
  • When Americans in movies drop articles, especially in movies with a western or cowboy theme, it is often to characterize the speaker as an ornery son-of-a-gun: "Animal should be put down -- anybody can see that". It is not the usual manner of speaking. It's the speaker not bothering to censor his thoughts as he "thinks aloud". – TimR Feb 21 '16 at 16:24
  • In the Horse Whisperer not only Cowboys omitted articles, but also educated parents of the injured girl, Annie and her husband. Omitting articles is not the typical feature of Russians, I mean. – Fatimahon Feb 21 '16 at 16:29
  • Give us an example. It's the typical feature of American movie Russians. – TimR Feb 21 '16 at 16:29
  • Americans omit articles as well, and I gave you an example. If a person omits articles he is not necessarily Russian, isn't he ( or she)?I meant precisely this. By the way it is not connected with the discussed sentence. – Fatimahon Feb 21 '16 at 16:33
  • Where is the example of the American dropping the article? I missed it. – TimR Feb 21 '16 at 16:34
  • The Horse Whisperer, if you need the sentences where articles are not used I can write them tomorrow, as it is very late in Russia now. – Fatimahon Feb 21 '16 at 16:36
  • OK. I meant the specific sentence. – TimR Feb 21 '16 at 16:37
  • Several sentences. Then till tomorrow. Here then is an adverb. – Fatimahon Feb 21 '16 at 16:37
  • @Fatimahon Omitting articles which English requires, or using the wrong article, is very characteristic of Russians learning English. But in English an article is not required with every noun, or in all contexts. .. For instance, a native speaker would write this in place of your comment above: "Not only Cowboys omitted articles, but also the educated parents of the injured girl, Annie and her husband. Omitting articles is not a feature typical of Russians." – StoneyB on hiatus Feb 21 '16 at 16:40
  • Not only of Russian learners, we love articles and try to use them correctly. – Fatimahon Feb 21 '16 at 16:41
  • @Fatimahon And we never think about them, which is why it's so difficult for us to explain how to use them! – StoneyB on hiatus Feb 21 '16 at 16:43
  • Another citation from Kung Fu panda : Noodles! Don't noodles! We may continue : Russians! Don' t Russians! ( these two sentences are not grammatical, though).There are no problems with articles in the above- mentioned sentence. – Fatimahon Feb 21 '16 at 16:46
  • I used the definite article with the phrase typical feature because I wanted to show that some people think that omitting articles is the only typical feature of Russians. It was an irony. With the educated parents I did not use the article, because I meant parents, not friends or other relatives, I used the so-called zero article in its classifying meaning, too many the don't always sound good. I was sure you would try to find fault with my articles.I am not offended though. It was an interesting discussion of Russians. I will tell my students about it today. – Fatimahon Feb 21 '16 at 16:53
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    @Fatimahon Actually, "Don't noodles!" is very odd: it treats the noun noodles as a verb, and it only works because it parallels "Quit, don't quit" which immediately precedes it. – StoneyB on hiatus Feb 21 '16 at 16:54
  • @Fatimahon Quite so. Misuse of articles is characteristic of many learners, not only Russian ones. And the 'diagnostic' feature of Russian speakers to my ear is one which Baldwin does not employ at all, palatalized mid and back vowels. – StoneyB on hiatus Feb 21 '16 at 16:57
  • Yes, a very profound stylistic device in Oogway's speech. It is my favorite from this cartoon. It also has a deep philosophical meaning. – Fatimahon Feb 21 '16 at 16:58
  • I am not an expert in this aspectWhat do you mean by palatalized vowels? – Fatimahon Feb 21 '16 at 17:00
  • @Fatimahon My mistake; I believe linguists speak of the preceding consonants being palatalized -- 'soft' consonants. I was an actor, not a linguist, and I think of the /j/ glide as a piece of the vowel. – StoneyB on hiatus Feb 21 '16 at 17:16