Which version is correct and normally used, "between you and me" or "between you and I"?

Question

I was listening to the song Superman by Eminem. I've listened it before many times but from the time I've started learning English grammar I am getting confused while reading or listening English. This time I got stuck at the line "Too much pride, between you and I Not a jealous man but females lie". The phrase "between you and I" always sounded correct to me. But recently I learned that me is only used as an object and hearing that phrase sparked my head. Then I searched over the net and found on English Language stackexchange that it is actually a hypercorrection. Wikipedia says,

"...according to many grammarians and stylists a pronoun in a prepositional phrase in English is supposed to be in the oblique case... ...though there is still disagreement on whether the phrase itself in today's language is grammatically correct or not."

My first question is, why is there a disagreement? Don't we always use the object form in the oblique case? If not then what are those cases?

Secondly, I want to know how common the phrase "between you an I" is? Is it used colloquially by common native English speakers. By common speakers I mean who don't bother grammar. I searched on http://corpus.byu.edu/coca/ and got some results, e.g. this. I found the phrase in another song -- here. Is it a common mistake among native English speakers or is it used to give some special linguistic affect? I think this phrase has some linguistic affect that is why the singer would have given the name of her song "Between You and I". Because no one would like to use incorrect English in the title of a song, it must have some purpose.

When you have questions on English usage, then, just *between you and I, a good place to look for answers would be a usage dictionary, such as Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage, for they will often have an entry on stuff like this. And MWDEU* does discuss this, as my copy of MWCDEU has an entry called "between you and I". (In short, this kind of usage is not a mistake.) — F.E., Jun 05 '15 at 20:12
Oh, don't blindly believe what you read over in EL&U. Much of what they say is wrong. — F.E., Jun 05 '15 at 20:19
@F.E. I searched in their website but could not find an entry for it. — user31782, Jun 06 '15 at 15:20
Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage is a usage dictionary, and also Merriam-Webster's Concise Dictionary of English Usage. — F.E., Jun 06 '15 at 16:40
I'm a "between you and me" kind of person, and think that "between you and I" is largely the result of hypercorrection from the 60's and 70's. Of course, in songs, making something rhyme is a consideration too. The Doors' "I'm gonna love you/till the stars fall from the sky/for you and I" isn't grammatically correct, for example, but me doesn't rhyme with sky. — BobRodes, Jun 16 '15 at 07:35
Here's a related answer post that uses excerpts from a vetted grammar source: Between you and (“me” or “I”)? — F.E., Jun 17 '15 at 04:03

score 8 · Answer 1 · answered Jun 16 '15 at 04:13

"Between you and me" is historically correct, but many native English speakers -- perhaps especially my fellow Americans -- do not know this. I suspect that the confusion comes from the fact that "you" and "you" are indistinguishable, so people get used to "You and I" as a subject and then use "you and I" as an object. This is not helped by the fact that there is much emphasis placed on correcting "you and me" (and "me and you") as a subject into "you and I".

The disagreement I think comes mostly from descriptivists who say that whatever is understood and commonly used becomes correct.

In addition, song lyrics push the limits of acceptable grammar often, sometimes on purpose and sometimes just because -- as in your example -- it makes a better rhyme. We have an idiom of "poetic license" which is used to excuse grammatical as well as factual inaccuracies in the name of art. See also for instance "Say a little prayer for I" in which the object (properly "me") is changed to "I" for a rhyme even in the absence of the word "you".

A good example of the flexible grammar of songs is "Don't speak", where "you and me" is used (incorrectly) to rhyme with "be" but "you and I" is used (correctly) to rhyme with "die/cry" — Kirt, Jul 05 '15 at 10:46

score 1 · Answer 2 · edited Apr 06 '16 at 04:38

"Between you and me". Plain and simple. Objects of prepositional phases always use the objective case of any pronoun (stands to reason, right!).

Consider these two alternatives: "Between us" and "Between we". Pretty clear that the first is correct and the second is incorrect. That's because the first is objective and the second is subjective. "We" (3rd person subjective, could be replaced by "you an I", the 2nd and 1st person subjective cases) and "Us" (3rd person objective, could be replaced by "you and me", the 2nd and 1st person objective cases).

This is what I call the "we-us" test. Whenever you want to know which is correct ("you and I" or "you and me"), simple substitute for "we" and/or "us". I "we" sounds correct, then go with "you and I" and if "us" sounds correct, go with "you and me".

With regard to where "between you and I" came from... well, this springs from people trying to sound more sophisticated than they are -- being under the impression that "you and I" sounds more sophisticated. It's just incorrect. Probably the most common similar example of this type of trying to put on airs is the overuse of "utilize" over "use". (No, this doesn't make you sound smarter either. And, by the way, the rule of thumb for this one is try "use" first and if -- and only if -- that doesn't work ,then try "utilize.")

Keep in mind, that just because something is popular, doesn't make it correct. Remember, at one time, everyone thought the earth was flat, but universal agreement did not make the earth actually flat!

Side note: popularity in linguistics usually does equate to correctness, because language is largely arbitrary and certainly artificial, and carries meaning only by convention. — Nathan Tuggy, Apr 06 '16 at 04:39

score 0 · Answer 3 · edited Oct 09 '20 at 10:01

I think the best way to identify which of it needs to be used in a sentence is to omit the third person and see if it still sounds right with just you in reference.

For Example:

You and I were in a meeting yesterday vs I was in a meeting yesterday

In the above case, it won't be right to use "me" because "Me was in a meeting" wouldn't be right

Please invite David and me to the party vs Please invite me to the party.

In this case, it won't be right to use "I" because "Please invite I to the party" is not right

score 0 · Answer 4 · answered Jun 05 '15 at 12:34

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To answer your first question, I don't know why there's disagreement, other than that some people like to argue. Yes, always use the object form in the oblique case. No argument.

However common the phrase "between you an I" might be, it's wrong -- apparently commonly wrong.

Listening to songs sung in English is a good way to familiarize yourself with the language, but pop singing groups are not known for impeccable grammar. Continue using authoritative references.

answered Jun 05 '15 at 12:34

JimM

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Is the phrase between you and I used colloquially? Or is it a common mistake among native English speakers. Or is it used to give some special linguistic affect. I think this phrase has some linguistic affect that is why the singer would have given the name of her song between you and I. Because no one would like to use incorrect English in the title of a song, it must have some purpose. – user31782 Jun 05 '15 at 13:01
@user31782, Poetic license is defined as the freedom to depart from the conventional rules of language in order to create an effect.
Correct: We sat beneath a starry sky, just you and I. Incorrect: We sat beneath a starry sky, sharing secrets between you and I.

The incorrect example is grammatically incorrect, but license is used so the two phrases rhyme.
– JimM Jun 05 '15 at 13:10
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I didn't really answer your question. Yes, it's used colloquially, and, yes, it's a common mistake. Yes to both questions. – JimM Jun 05 '15 at 13:18
Ok so in songs its primary purpose is to fit in the rhyme scheme and it is a common mistake among common native speakers? But what about those who disagree with it being grammatically incorrect. What are their arguments? Is this phrase plain ungrammatical or are their any good arguments for it being grammatically correct? – user31782 Jun 05 '15 at 13:21
I can't think of any reason why 'between you and I' would be correct. I'd be curious to hear their arguments. I still hold to the rule stated by the OP, always use the object form in the oblique case. Note: I haven't checked the Wikipedia reference, yet. – JimM Jun 05 '15 at 13:32
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Some people take the view that "correct grammar" is defined solely by what is commonly used. If enough people say it, it is right, by definition. By that theory, at some point "a common mistake" becomes "correct". Note that unlike, say, physics, you can't perform an experiment to prove what is correct grammar. Personally I'd say "violates a rule that is good and logical" makes a grammatical construct "wrong", but many disagree. – Jay Jun 05 '15 at 13:38
Okay. I read the Wiki. The text is more a diatribe than an effort to establish a guideline. I love the Wikipedia for a quick reference, but it's not a definitive source. One of the examples given: "without you or I knowing anything about it." The pronoun, I, is not an object of the preposition, without. It's the subject of the implied sentence, "You or I know something (anything) about it." The example really doesn't apply. – JimM Jun 05 '15 at 13:56

score 0 · Answer 5 · edited Jun 16 '20 at 09:11

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According to the grammarians the most correct version is - between you and me.

Though there has been vigorous debates as to whether between you and I are correct or not, it failed to reach any good unanimous conclusion. Grammarians divided in two groups - one supporting this usage, another raising their objection.

In this scenario some style guide manuals and usage dictionaries came in rescue, providing their recommendations.

From Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage -

You are probably safe in retaining between you and I in your casual speech, if it exists there naturally, and you would be true to life in placing it in the mouths of fictional characters. But you had better avoid it in essays and other works of a discursive nature. If you use it, someone is sure to notice and disparage your character, background, or education. What is more, it seems to have no place in modern edited prose.

For details please refer to the entry - Between you and I - of that book.

You can also refer to these images (included these images from the book for OP, because it seems that he doesn't have this book) -

enter image description here

In case you want to download these images, please click on below links -

Link 1
Link 2
Link 3

edited Jun 16 '20 at 09:11

Community

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answered Jun 16 '15 at 05:16

Man_From_India

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Er, you might want to look into a reference grammar such as the 2002 H&P CGEL and see what they say about coordination of pronouns with respect to their case. :) – F.E. Jun 16 '15 at 05:34
@F.E. Oh okay...I just saw your comments under the question, and straight away checked MW usage dictionary :D :P okay I will look into that...any page number? – Man_From_India Jun 16 '15 at 05:36
H&P CGEL, section "Coordinate nominatives corresponding to non-coordinate accusatives", on page 463. Also, page 1326, [11]. – F.E. Jun 16 '15 at 05:43
@F.E. Thank you...I am reading pg. 463 already....That is really some good stuff written there...I will update my answer as soon as I am done with the reading and will fully understand it :-) – Man_From_India Jun 16 '15 at 05:45
This is also discussed in H&P's 2005 textbook, A Student's Introduction to English Grammar, page 107 -- which might be a better explanation in that it is a more recent text. – F.E. Jun 16 '15 at 05:46
If you want to copy excerpts from the H&P CGEL or 2005 book, you might be able to find some of it in one or more of my posts on ELL or EL&U. Aside: Remember that usage dictionaries are done by usage commentators, and so, er, use their grammatical assessments with a grain or two of salt--for usage commentators are good for "usage" info. Usually, something like CGEL will normally trump usage commentators' opinions w.r.t. grammar. Also, you might perhaps consider also using the concluding paragraph from the 2002 MWCDEU, since it has more recent info (more recent than MWDEU). :) – F.E. Jun 16 '15 at 05:53
@F.E. I have a question. In CGEL it says the construction is so widely spread in speech that it has to be recognised as the variety of Standard English. So does it mean it is not yet considered as standard in written text? And othe usage dictionaries says this construction is no longer seen in written documents. So here confusion occurs :-( I don't have MWCDEU. So what is the conclusion? – Man_From_India Jun 16 '15 at 05:55
I've copied MWCDEU into one of my answer posts somewhere, I think. (Or in one of my comments.) -- "between you and me/I" is a rather personal sort of expression, so you'll usually only see it normally in speech or personal written communications (e.g. letters). But in professional written text, that type of expression will typically not be seen at all, and so, this issue becomes irrelevant for those registers. – F.E. Jun 16 '15 at 05:59
@F.E. I will definitely search for that answer :-) I will come back in the evening (it's afternoon now here). Thanks anyway. I need to ask you few more confusions I have. Can I invite for a chat later sometime? – Man_From_India Jun 16 '15 at 06:03
Er, I don't use "chat". – F.E. Jun 16 '15 at 06:03
@F.E. Okay that is fine...no problem :-) but I really like if you please contribute something in this question - http://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/52831/preposition-before-noun-phrases. Whenever you have time. – Man_From_India Jun 16 '15 at 06:06
In my copy of Merriam-Webster's Concise Dictionary of English Usage (MWCDEU), in their entry "between you and I", the concluding paragraph on page 135 is:: ==> Conclusion: between you and I seems now to be primarily a spoken form which no amount of correction by commentators aiming to improve written English will extinguish. Neither it nor the prescribed between you and me appears very often in print. Our little current evidence almost invariably uses me. For more instances of the anomalous use of pronouns, see MYSELF; PRONOUNS; WHO, WHOM 1. – F.E. Jun 16 '15 at 06:09
I think in this context of this answer, your Merriam Webster usage quote is too enthusiastic regarding the "between you and I" usage. It seems not to provide "balance" as you may have intended, but rather, it's seems almost like a recommendation. English language learners would be well advised to use "between you and me" and simply defer to politeness if someone "corrects" them with they hyper-correction "between you and I". – CoolHandLouis Jun 17 '15 at 00:04
Here's a related answer post that uses excerpts from a vetted grammar source: Between you and (“me” or “I”)? – F.E. Jun 17 '15 at 04:03

rogermue · Answer 6 · 2016-04-06T13:35:25.710

Prepositions are normally followed by an accusative or dative, sometimes even by a genetive. But not by a nominative. In English a feeling for accusative after a preposition is getting lost. Only when studying other languages you learn that there is no nominative after a preposition.

In English you can still see it with personal pronouns. You say "for him, with him etc" and not "for he or with he".

But when "between you and I is of common usage" it is to be tolerated. But I would prefer "between you and me".

Google Ngram shows that "between you and me" is the preferred expression. Link

score 0 · Answer 7 · answered Apr 06 '16 at 08:09

Pronoun Rules

Subjects use subjective pronouns.
Objects use objective pronouns.
Objects of the preposition (any noun coming after a preposition) use objective pronouns.

Example Sentence

He attacked her between them.

He is the subject.
Her is the object.
Them is the object of the preposition.

List of subjective pronouns

he
she
it
we
they
you
I
etc.

List of objective pronouns

him
her
it
us
them
you
me
etc.

Do native speakers always follow this rule?

No. This is one of the grammar rules that native speakers sometimes break. Grammar rules are good general guidelines, but languages are living things that change at a very fast rate. In a lot of ways, grammar is more like reverse engineering a language that already exists, rather than setting rules for a language and trying to make people follow them.

What are some other examples of grammar rules that native English speakers break?

There are several cases when you are supposed to use the word "whom" instead of "who". However, it is rare that I hear speakers following this rule.
If you say a sentence in the format pronoun + to be + pronoun, the second pronoun is supposed to be subjective. This is called the predicate nominative. There are some idioms where this rule is followed, such as it is I, but for the most part speakers ignore this rule. You don't hear native speakers saying things like If I were she, I would take the job. A native speaker would say If I were her, I would take the job.