0

Introduction

This question is a mixture of 8th revision of the question "I am been" or "I have been"? and the previous version of the present question which was unclear. Both of the questions are related to each other. The whole question revolves around the use and meaning of different tenses of type simple past and present perfect. Before asking this question I tried to read the canonical post: Canonical Post #2: What is the perfect, and how should I use it? . Unfortunately that post is too much technical for me. That's why I have asked this question. So please try to avoid technical grammar and vocabulary in your answer.

As I understand it, simple past tense is almost same as the present prefect tense with the difference that

  1. simple past implies that the action is finish and in present prefect tenses most of the sentences mean that the act is finished and some mean that the action is going on. In present perfect continues tenses the action is going on, always.

  2. Simple past tense is used to narrate something and present prefect tense is used to mention something

In the following sections, I've told how I understand the meanings of some sentences. If the meanings that I've written are wrong then please explain the correct meaning in your answer. I've also written the specific questions with the label Question in bold.

Comparison of simple past with present prefect

Case 1: Present perfect implies the action is finished but has present consequences.

1(a). I wrote a letter.

Meaning: I wrote a letter in the past which, now, may or may not be available, may or may not be torn out or may or may not be burned. In other words the letter may or may not exist in the universe at present. The act of writing was finished in the past.

1(b). I have written a letter.

Meaning: I wrote a letter in the past and it is still with me(or someone else), or available in some form in some place, even if it's not with me. In other words the letter still exists in this universe at present. The act of writing was finished in the past.

2(a). I ate the food.

Meaning: I ate the food in the past. The act of eating was finished in the past. I may or may not be hungry at present.

2(b). I have eaten the food.

Meaning: I ate the food in the past. The act of eating was finished in the past. I am not hungry at present.

Case 2: Present perfect implies the action is not finished yet

3(a). I lived in Paris for five years.

Meaning: It is explicit that I was living in Paris from 1-Jan-2010 to 1 Jan-2015. I may or may not be living in Paris at present.

3(b). I have lived in Paris for five years.

Meaning: I am living in Paris for the last five years, that is still living there at present, and will continue to live there.

Case 3: Present perfect = Simple Past -- when we mention something rather than narrating.

consider a scenario in which I am talking with someone while walking with them on a long road at 3.00 PM.

Me:\ \ I am very hungry.
They: Haven't you eaten the food at 2.30 PM?
Me:\ \ I have eaten the food.

Meaning: I ate the food in the past. The act of eating was finished in the past. I am still hungry at present.

Case 4: I do not know what present perfect means here.

5(a) I was, for a short time, an employee of that company.
5(b) I was, an employee of that company, since some time ago.
5(c) I have been, for a short time an employee of that company.
5(d) I have been, an employee of that company, since some time ago.

Question 1:

  • Does 5(a), 5(b), 5(c) and 5(d) mean that I am working for that company at present?
  • Does 5(a), 5(b), 5(c) and 5(d) mean that I am not working for that company at present?
  • Does 5(a), 5(b), 5(c) and 5(d) mean that I may or may not be working for that company at present?
  • Does the meaning depend upon the context?

How to narrate about a “past hypothetical situation” in English?

As I said before, simple past tense is used to narrate something and present prefect tense is used to mention the same thing. E.g. consider the following example(taken from this post):

Narrative version: 6(a) The children played in the sandbox for a while, then moved to the swings. At four o'clock their mother called them inside because it looked like rain.

Mentioning version: 6(b) The children have played in the sandbox and left their toys there. Tell them to go bring their toys inside.

In 6(a) the act of playing by the children has no present consequences and the act was finished in the past. In 6(b) the act of playing by children has present consequences and the act has just finished at the present. The consequence of the act is that they are asked to get their toys inside.

I am playing the role role of Lion and conversing with some Tiger in the following context. In the narrating version, I am narrating my thoughts to the Tiger, and in the mentioning version, I am mentioning my thoughts to the Tiger.

Narrating version

Hypothetical present: Suppose, I were King of the forest, and I loose a fight with the Python, what would you think of me?

Meaning: In reality, I am no king at present. I am asking the Tiger to imagine a scenario in which I am king of the forest at present January 2015, and I loose a fight with the Python. I am asking the Tiger what he would think about me if this situation were real.

x-Real simple past: I was King of the forest, and I lost a fight with the python, what do you think of me?

Meaning: I was, in real, king of forest in the past. I lost a fight in the past. I am asking the Tiger what he thinks about me. Since, the sentence is simple past the fact of my being the king in the past has no present consequences and I may or may not be king at present .

y-Hypothetical simple Past: Suppose, I ________(had been?) king of the forest, and If I had lost a fight with the python, what would you think of me?

y-Meaning: I was, in real, never a King in the past. I am asking the Tiger to imagine a scenario in which I be king of the forest at past, say, January 2004, but I lost a fight with the python in the January 2001. I am asking the Tiger what he would think about me if this situation were real. Since, the sentence is simple past the fact of my being the king in the past has no present consequences and I may or may not be king at present in that imaginary scenario.

Mentioning version

x-Real Present Perfect: I have been King of the forest, isn't that enough to make a fear of me in pythons?

Meaning: I was in real, King, of the forest in the past. Since, the sentence is present perfect the fact of my being the king in the past has present consequences and I am for sure, not King of the forest at present --- the consequence is the fear of me in the pythons. The Tiger thinks that the fear in the Pythons is because of something else not because of my being the King in the past. I am asking him, isn't my being the King in the past enough to make a fear of me in pythons?

y-Hypothetical present perfect: Suppose, I have been King of the forest, wouldn't that be enough to make a fear of me in pythons?

Meaning: I was in real, no King, of the forest in the past. I am asking the Tiger to imagine a scenario in which I be king of the forest in past. Since, the sentence is present perfect the fact of my being the king in the past has present consequences and I am for sure, not King of the forest at present in that imaginary scenario --- the consequence is the fear of me in the pythons. The Tiger thinks that the fear in the Pythons would be because of something else not because of my being the King in the past. I am asking him, wouldn't my being the King in the past enough to make a fear of me in pythons?

Real Past Perfect: I had been the king of the forest, wasn't that enough to make a fear of me in pythons?

Meaning: I was, in real, king of the forest in the past, but I retired from that post after some time in the past, say I was king from 1950 to 1970. The fact of my being the king in the past(1950-1970) had consequences in 1970 I have for sure, not been King of the forest from 1970 onwards. The consequence was the fear of me in the pythons in 1970. The Tiger thinks that the fear in the Pythons was because of something else not because of my being the King in the past(50-70). I am asking him, wasn't my being the King in the past enough to make a fear of me in pythons?

z-Hypothetical Past Perfect: Suppose, I had been king of the forest, wouldn't that have been enough to make a fear of me in pythons?

z-Meaning: I was, in real, never a King in the past from 1950 to 1970. I am asking the Tiger to imagine a scenario in which I be king of the forest at past from 1950 to 1970 The fact of my being the king in the past(1950-1970) had consequences in 1970 I have for sure, not been King of the forest from 1970 onwards in that scenario. The consequence was the fear of me in the pythons. The Tiger thinks that the fear in the Pythons would have been because of something else not because of my being the King in the past(50-70). I am asking him, wouldn't my being the King in the past enough to make a fear of me in pythons?

Question: How should I fill the blank in y-Hypothetical simple past so that it's meaning will still remain y-meaning. If I fill it with had been then it will no longer be a narrative sentence; it will become a past Perfect and mentioning sentence equivalent to z-Hypothetical past perfect.

Question: How to speak about a Future hypothetical sentence? That is how can I say, suppose I will become king of the forest?

Community
  • 1
user31782
  • 1,763
  • 9
  • 41
  • 61
  • 1
    I deleted my answer because I am not sure I understand your question. Are you asking to imagine a situation wherein you became king in the past and still were, or a situation wherein you were king for some time in the past but no longer were? – Adam Jan 15 '15 at 18:47
  • @Adam Actually both of them, 1. I am asking to imagine a situation wherein I became king in the past and still were -- The fact that I am still the king at present should be explicit(self evident). 2. I am asking to imagine a situation wherein I became king in the past. The information of whether I am king at present or not should not be there. – user31782 Jan 15 '15 at 18:51
  • I think for 2 the line would be, suppose, I became the king. – user31782 Jan 15 '15 at 18:52
  • 1
    Suppose I had become king in 1993.... –  Jan 15 '15 at 18:57
  • Do you know how to strike out text in comments, like I did there with the word definition as <strike> definition </strike> – user31782 Jan 15 '15 at 18:57
  • @CarSmack I do not want to mention the exact date. – user31782 Jan 15 '15 at 18:58
  • I don't think "Suppose, I am the king" is grammatically wrong, although I would say "Suppose that I am the king". – ColleenV Jan 15 '15 at 19:07
  • 1a. Suppose I were King today, having become King upon the death of Uncle Chet in 1993. 1b. Suppose I became King upon the death of my uncle Chet in 1993 and were still king today. 2a. Suppose I became king back when Uncle Chet died. (Emphasis is on what would have happened after you became king) 2b. Suppose I had become king back when Uncle Chet died. (Emphasis is on what would have happened when you became king. Very subtle, this difference in emphasis between 2a and 2b) – Adam Jan 15 '15 at 19:09
  • But this tells that I became king when Uncle Chet died. I want to say that imagine I became king in the past, without including the word past. – user31782 Jan 15 '15 at 19:12
  • So we want to ask the listener to imagine a scenario in which you were king at some point in the past, and may or may not still be king, and do this without using any explicit reference to time/date - only by verb tense? – Adam Jan 15 '15 at 19:15
  • yes, now you got me. I can do this in my language quite easily. – user31782 Jan 15 '15 at 19:15
  • This question may be helpful, Like I am / were a different person. – user3169 Jan 15 '15 at 19:23
  • Past unreal conditional: Suppose I had become king; how different my life would be. If you say Suppose I had been king then it it would be implied that you no longer are. Present Unreal Conditional: Suppose I were king sets the reference frame in the present. – Adam Jan 15 '15 at 19:23
  • I (and probably @CarSmack) were including date reference to convey when you might choose those constructions. They were hungry stands alone, but adding yesterday would signal in this online conversation that I am using it as past tense. In fact, suppose _ is performing a similar role. _Suppose they were hungry. It doesn't change the verb tense - it provides context so we know what the verb tense is. – Adam Jan 15 '15 at 19:38
  • I think, I can eloborate the question. And also I can generalize it further. There had been a similar question-- the 8th reversion I will edit the question tomorrow. – user31782 Jan 15 '15 at 19:42
  • @user31782 - Your linked page doesn't allow responses, but I read it. There are a lot of questions within it, and I can't possibly hit them all in a comment. Here's one little thing. "I am been" is never correct, in any circumstance. The phrase you want in Part 1 is either I have been, since a short time ago, an employee of that company. OR I have been, for a short time, an employee of that company. These both mean that you were not an employee a year ago, you were an employee two days ago, you still are an employee, and no end of employment is implied one way or the other. – Adam Jan 15 '15 at 19:59
  • @Adam The actual question is http://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/22867/i-am-been-or-i-have-been There was a lot of interesting discussion in the comments which led me to modify the question. But as per SE policy, modifying a question isn't allowed so the moderator rolled everything back. The discussion in the comments was gone and I forgot what was in those comments which led me to ask those things so I never asked that question.Since a similar question has popped in my mind, I have to recall everything.I'll edit the question to encompass everything.I have to sleep now.Thanks for your help. – user31782 Jan 15 '15 at 20:09
  • Consider: "Suppose I am* the king next year"* (open possibility--I am of royalty) vs "Suppose I was* the king next year"* (modally remote--You know I am a plain person). So, when talking about the past time sphere: "Suppose I became* the king two years ago"* (open possibility) vs "Suppose I had become* the king two years ago"* (modally remote). Though, those using a past-perfect can often be ambiguous as to whether or not it involves modal remoteness. For related info, there's CGEL pages 1002-3, [25-26], which use examples like "Suppose she was in London now/next week". – F.E. Jan 15 '15 at 23:02
  • @Adam I've clarified the question. – user31782 Jan 16 '15 at 16:26
  • "In present perfect continues tenses the action is going on, always." Wrong Consider: Q: Where have you been? A: I've been out jogging. The person is not still jogging. –  Jan 16 '15 at 23:03
  • There is absoultely no form am been in standard English. None. Zilch. Also @Adam –  Jan 16 '15 at 23:04
  • I wrote two pretty detailed answers about the present perfect two days ago. One is on ELL. The answer I wrote at ELU is here. I say this, because it might help you with the present perfect, and what using it implies about the present. I've been studying that lately, and it's helped me. –  Jan 16 '15 at 23:11
  • @δοῦλος I guess, there can be one use of am been. Suppose, there were a robot which could transform itself to any human, say me. Now I will say: I am been the robot. Means that, I was being that robot. – user31782 Jan 17 '15 at 09:57
  • 1
    It is clear you do not understand how we use verbs. I say this based on your posted understanding of what the present perfect means. In every single example of what you say the present perfect means, you are either wrong or giving only one possible meaning. We also in standard English would not say Suppose there were a* robot* but Suppose there was... Given your questionable understanding of verb phase, tense, aspect and mood, I doubt I know what you mean by "I am been the robot." It is ungrammatical in standard English. Always. –  Jan 17 '15 at 12:14
  • 1
    In your previous question, one person said that I am been means something. Everyone else said it is wrong and meaningless. In this case the majority was correct. You cannot passively be been like you can passively be seen. There is no use correct/meaningful use of am been. – Adam Jan 17 '15 at 12:15
  • @δοῦλος I was told that the phrase "I am been something" means that something was being me which is incorrect, because no one can be me. But I created a hypothetical robot which can be me. – user31782 Jan 17 '15 at 12:20
  • Ask it as a question here at ELL or ELU. Then stand back for the answers from native speakers, and preferably native speakers of AmE, BrE, Canadian E, Australian/NZ E. In other words Indian English has so many nonstandard uses that I rarely look at a question or answer from anyone who speaks it, except a few select people including @Maulik V. Not because I think Indian Eng is incorrect, I just don't speak it. –  Jan 17 '15 at 12:28
  • @δοῦλος I have asked it, http://ell.stackexchange.com/q/47183/3448 – user31782 Jan 19 '15 at 12:01

1 Answers1

2

Were I king = if I were king.

It is a present hypothetical. If I were king, I would make my birthday a national holiday.

Had I been king = if I had been king.

It is a past hypothetical. If I had been king, I would have given America its independence without a fight.

P.S. In response to the edited question which includes this:

How can I narrate a sentence which asks the listener to imagine that ... I was the King in some past time. In other words, the truth is that I was never a King in the past but I am asking the listener to imagine a situation in which I became King in past.

Suppose I had been king.

That is, past perfect.

P.P.S. If the question is specifically about a hypotethical scenario in the past where you became king:

Suppose I had become king.

If I had become king, it would not have been by primogeniture, because I had a living older brother.

TimR
  • 123,877
  • 7
  • 100
  • 202
  • If "I had been king" is narrative than how can mention the same? – user31782 Jan 16 '15 at 13:11
  • Don't we use the before the word "King"? – user31782 Jan 16 '15 at 13:12
  • We can, be we are not required to do so. The cowardly lion in the Wizard of Oz sings "If I were king of the foreessst..." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOCNY9pJ850 – TimR Jan 16 '15 at 13:18
  • I don't understand your question If "I had been king" is narrative than how can mention the same? What do you mean, "mention the same"? To what does "the same" refer? Also, I did not write "I had been king" but "if I had been king." – TimR Jan 16 '15 at 16:15
  • Just as "7(a) I was the King" is narrative and "I have been the King" is mentioning. To me " if I were king" is the narrative version and "if I had been king" is the mentioning version. But you say that "if I had been king" is the narrative version, then what is its mentioning version? – user31782 Jan 16 '15 at 16:26
  • To me, "if I were king" is the narrative... You are incorrect there. If I were king is not a narrative about a past event; it is a present hypothetical. If I had been king is a past hypothetical; it is not a statement about something that took place in the past. You are not making yourself very clear, in part because you continue to base your question on some false assumptions. – TimR Jan 16 '15 at 16:34
  • Can I post the question in my native language or Hindi atleast? – user31782 Jan 16 '15 at 16:36
  • You can do what you like, as far as I'm concerned, but I don't speak Hindi. – TimR Jan 16 '15 at 16:38
  • TRomano, I've edited the question to clarify it. If I had been king is a perfect sentence. I need a sentence which would be not perfect, but yet simple past hypothetical like simple past real sentence. – user31782 Jan 17 '15 at 15:59
  • 1
    If I had been king.... is not a "perfect sentence". The back-shifting of the tense to past-perfect had been signals a past hypothetical. To signal a present hypothetical, the tense-shifts from am [present form of the verb to be] to were (or was) [simple past of the verb to be]. So English cannot signal a past hypothetical with a simple past form because that form is already used for the present hypothetical. – TimR Jan 17 '15 at 16:34
  • Then how can I express my thoughts in English? How can I ask someone to suppose that I became king in the past but without giving the information whether I remained king or not? Also how can we say a Future hypothetical sentence in English? – user31782 Jan 19 '15 at 11:38
  • @user31782: I am not sure what you mean by "remained king". Remained king up until the present moment in which you and your interlocutor find yourselves? Although we have no verb form dedicated to use in future hypothetical situations, English can express a future hypothetical using a temporal modifier:"If I were king some day..." – TimR Jan 19 '15 at 12:34
  • "If I had been been" is a perfect tense. That is I am explicitly telling that suppose, I became king for a certain duration and I am no longer king in contrast to "I was king", mean I may or may not be king at present. – user31782 Jan 19 '15 at 13:05
  • Remained king up until the present assuming that that scenario is real. – user31782 Jan 19 '15 at 13:07
  • English has no dedicated verb form to express the idea "imagine X had been true at some time in the past and that X continued to be true and that X remains true even as we speak", as distinct from scenarios where the imaginary fact ceased to be true at some point in the past. Those temporal aspects of the hypothetical would be expressed via appropriate tense shifts, modals, and adverbial modifiers (supported by non-grammatical social or cultural context). If I had been elected president in the last election, I would be using my veto power today to quash this bill. – TimR Jan 19 '15 at 13:16
  • "Remained king up until the present assuming that that scenario is real" is not a hypothetical. You are going in circles. – TimR Jan 19 '15 at 13:20
  • Remained king up until the present in that hypothetical scenario. – user31782 Jan 19 '15 at 13:33
  • In this example of wikipedea they are using present tense for hypothetical scenario, "If it is raining, then he is inside". – user31782 Aug 21 '15 at 15:01