0

UPDATE: The question has been edited to make the compared examples more consistent with each other.

[1] Beverly felt a relief that was similar to the relief she had felt when the bathroom was clean again.

[2] He saw the flickering of doubled vision, but the movements of violence had receded as the orange flecks left the Honored Matre's eyes.

Consider the above examples (1 and 2). These follow a past-perfect matrix clause with a simple-past subordinate clause introduced by the temporal prepositions 'when' and 'as.'

[3] Benjavier opened the door a crack, only to have it shoved open all the way by a stiff arm from Locke, who called up some of the manner he'd used when he'd lectured Don Salvara as a "Midnighter".

[4] Kyoshi's confidence had vanished as she'd struggled with Rangi's injury.

Now consider this second group of examples (3 and 4). These use a past-perfect matrix clause followed by a past-perfect subordinate clause introduced by the prepositions 'when' and 'as.'

In the subordinate clauses of all four of these examples, taken from traditionally published books, the author is referring to a time in the past before the current time of the book, regardless of whether they use the past-perfect 'had' or not.

Having read quite a few threads on this site talking about the use of past perfect, I'm still unsure whether I should follow the structure of the first group of examples (1 and 2) or the second (3 and 4).

It's been said that the past perfect is not required so long as the temporal shift is apparent, either through a temporal adjunct (such as 'the day before' or 'before he left') or implied context. We could argue that the contextual condition has been met in the subordinate clauses of 1 and 2, but I'd like to compare them to my next example (5).

[5] M'Lord had returned when I arrived last night.

This is taken from another published work, and it follows the same grammatical pattern as examples 1 and 2. However, the meaning, as I understand it, can be construed in two different ways. First, the lord returned at the moment when 'I' arrived. This follows the same logic as examples 1 and 2. Second (in my opinion, the most logical interpretation), the lord returned before 'I' arrived.

That said, how can we justify omitting 'had' in examples 1 and 2? Is it a simple case of presumption? Assuming that the reader will follow the writer's logic? There's nothing to say that a reader couldn't interpret example 1 as 'Beverly felt the relief before the bathroom was clean.' Likewise, for example 2, this could be interpreted as 'the movements of violence receded before the orange flecks were leaving the Honored Matre's eyes.'

Compared to the usage of 'before' and 'after,' which I have seen discussed frequently in reference to omitting the past perfect, temporal prepositions such as 'when,' 'while,' and 'as' are far easier to misinterpret.

MJ Ada
  • 237
  • 1
  • 11
  • I'm not big on terminology, but apparently A matrix clause is a clause that structurally surrounds an embedded clause. The example in the link is The man that the child kicked in the shins* winced in pain, where the highlighted element is a "matrix clause". Your first example happens to include the word that*, but I can't for the life of me see any similarity between the structure of your sentence and the one in my link. I think you misunderstand what a matrix clause is. – FumbleFingers Oct 13 '23 at 14:33
  • 1
    Native speakers would be unlikely to repeat the Perfect verb form as in your examples #3 and #4. It's not necessary, so most writers (and practically all speakers) would switch to Simple Past after the first Past Perfect. – FumbleFingers Oct 13 '23 at 14:38
  • I would understand (5) to mean that his lordship had already returned and (1) that the old man was already dead. – Kate Bunting Oct 13 '23 at 14:40
  • @FumbleFingers Perhaps I am misinterpreting. The first example is an outlier in that it is a very specific type of idiomatic clause, beginning with 'If only.' However, I would argue it is a matrix clause because it contains 'when my Duke was born,' which is a subordinate clause and a temporal adjunct in the clause structure. – MJ Ada Oct 13 '23 at 14:41
  • @FumbleFingers If you could point me to a specific section where it addresses this ambiguity, I'd be happy to accept this as duplicate. I've looked through it and can't find reference to this. It talks about 'after' and 'before,' but I can't find any issues with those prepositions resembling the ambiguity I'm discussing. – MJ Ada Oct 13 '23 at 14:44
  • Re your There's nothing to say that a reader couldn't interpret example 1 as 'the old man was dead before the Duke was born.' I think that's nonsense. Pragmatically, we would assume the old man died *after* (not *before) Duke's birth, but it's the word when* rather than the verb forms that "allows" your perverse interpretation. To avoid the (hypothetical, inconsequential) ambiguity, change *when* to *before* or *after* as required. – FumbleFingers Oct 13 '23 at 14:45
  • 1
    Note that your example #5 (M'Lord had* returned when I arrived last night)* uses Past Perfect to explicitly force *when* to be interpreted as meaning *before, but Simple Past + when* would mean exactly the same: M'Lord returned before* I arrived last night*. It's just that the Simple Past draws more attention to m'Lord's earlier return, where Past Perfect focuses more on the later state of affairs when I arrived. – FumbleFingers Oct 13 '23 at 14:53
  • @FumbleFingers Would you like to write an answer? These are very valuable insights, so if you have the time to put them into a singular explanation, that would be very appreciated. I would perhaps like to hear an alternative perspective before accepting it, but that doesn't mean it's not useful. I'm still going through some of the threads listed in the link you provided, but none of them have dived into this specifically so far. – MJ Ada Oct 13 '23 at 15:02
  • Your first interpretation of #5 (the lord returned at the moment when* I arrived)* isn't exactly justifiable. It's an "unlikely" reading, as a general principle - but if that was the intended sense, a competent writer would probably convey it more explicitly: M'Lord had returned at the same time as* I [had] arrived last night.* But a competent writer probably wouldn't pointlessly include the Perfect verb form there anyway. – FumbleFingers Oct 13 '23 at 15:47
  • 1
    @MJAda Your sentence [1] doesn't belong in this list because it has irrealis mood, where the others have realis mood. Irrealis mood uses past perfect in place of simple past to indicate it's unreal, so that example is not comparable to the others. In sentence [1], the meaning is "That old man didn't die* when my Duke was born*" (simple past). Please replace or remove that sentence so we're comparing apples with apples. – gotube Oct 13 '23 at 17:28
  • What ambiguity?? – Lambie Oct 15 '23 at 16:35
  • @Lambie The question specifically relates to the omission (or lack thereof) of 'had' and the potential ambiguities arising from that. Example 5 illustrates a context in which the temporal interpretation is different from examples 1 and 2 despite all three sharing the same structure (with 'had' not being included in the subordinate clause). Though not easy to misinterpret, I would like to know why the omission is justifiable in 1 and 2 when the authors of 3 and 4 have perceived the inclusion of 'had' to be necessary. 'Ambiguity' is very debatable, I admit, but the syntactical question is there. – MJ Ada Oct 16 '23 at 10:52
  • Ambiguity is not the right word. I think you should actually post sentences, one above the other that show that supposed ambiguity.// Beverly felt a relief that was similar to the relief she had felt when the bathroom was clean again. versus Beverly felt relief [no a] before the bathroom was clean again. Those are just two different sentences. All your sentences have a past perfect preceded by by a simple past. In 4, you have to change had struggled to struggled to make it standard grammar. – Lambie Oct 16 '23 at 13:07
  • is fine and follows the rule: past perfect shows an action that occurs prior to an action in the simple past: M'Lord had returned when I arrived last night.
  • – Lambie Oct 16 '23 at 13:08
  • I think my phrasing of the question has detracted from what I'm actually trying to find out. It's not so much that I think there's any ambiguity, but rather I'm wondering why there's no risk of that on the basis that examples 3 and 4 maintain the past perfect for all verbs taking place before the time of orientation. A better question would perhaps be: When can we safely omit 'had' in past-perfect clauses introduced by the prepositions 'when,' 'as,' and 'while'? – MJ Ada Oct 16 '23 at 17:51
  • Please reread my comments. I have answered your question and fixed 5) so it will work. He arrived when I had finished. versus He arrived when I finished. This is about the meaning you want to give an utterance. The had + past participle ALWAYS precedes something in the simple past or continuous, either literally or implied. – Lambie Oct 16 '23 at 18:27
  • Please forgive me if I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying 3 and 4 are the outliers? Are they non-standard? I'm aware that the past-perfect clauses are anterior to the past simple that contextualises them. It is everything contained within the past-perfect matrix clause that makes me ask whether the extra 'had' within a clause intended to specify time is needed. It could be an answer as simple as, 'it's a choice,' which is the case with 'had' in sentences with 'before' and 'after.' The amount of information here has made it hard to fully dissect, so forgive me if I'm missing the obvious. – MJ Ada Oct 16 '23 at 18:46
  • There is nothing that precludes two past perfects: After they arrived, I had washed and dried the dishes. After I had washed and dried the dishes, they had arrived. This before and after thing is just a no-go. – Lambie Oct 17 '23 at 17:59