1

I came across this exercise with my young students. An official German school-book in use. Here we exercise the "Conditional type 2" where it says:

"If I went to a school in Wales, I would play rugby"

Can this be correct? shouldn't it be: "I would have played rugby"

Something feels wrong :-)

textbook with the quoted sentence

FrankMK
  • 235
  • 1
  • 3
  • 12
  • "If I had been to a school in Wales, I would have played rugby". – Weather Vane May 16 '23 at 19:51
  • 4
    If the speaker is a current student in Deutschland, went and would are fine. That's present counterfactual. If the speaker is an adult and is speaking of their school days in Deutschland, had gone and would have are appropriate. Those are perfect counterfactuals. – John Lawler May 16 '23 at 20:00
  • In my understanding, and even when I translate it literally to German, there are two different times. "If I went = past" versus " I would" - Translating this into German sounds like humbug. – FrankMK May 16 '23 at 20:13
  • 1
    Note that originally would was the past tense of will and could the past tense of can. So there is in a sense a match between the two halves of the sentences in the book. – Henry May 16 '23 at 20:21
  • To me, the sentence sounds wrong. Unless, of course, all people who went to school in Wales are legally required to play rugby when asked. – mankowitz May 16 '23 at 20:28
  • If I talk about my current abilities, "I would play rugby." If about past abilities, "I would have played rugby." – Yosef Baskin May 16 '23 at 20:51
  • @mankowitz That's one way to interpret it. But it could also be interpreted as the speaker would like to play rugby, but it's not available where they go to school. But if they went to school in Wales, rugby would be available and they would play it. – Barmar May 16 '23 at 20:58
  • Can someone google how often that phrase (like in the school-book) is used around the world ? I forgot how to research the www. It would be quit interesting....how the mayority use this case..... – FrankMK May 16 '23 at 23:16
  • Can you explain what you mean by "that phrase" as in "that phrase (like in the school-book)"? Are you asking specifically about a phrase in the Wales sentence or about the frequency of the so-called 2nd conditional to express a present counterfactual? – Shoe May 17 '23 at 07:29
  • to Shoe : i mean the phrase " If I went......, i would...." For my excuse, I am not a native English speaker.... For me, would is a virtual expression and went , past-form of a verb. So translatet literally to German it would sound like that: "Wenn ich in Wales zur Schule gegangen wäre, dann würde ich Rugby spielen" But it should be "Wenn ich in Wales zur Schule gegangen wäre dann "hätte" ich Rugby gespielt. Hätte = would have.

    Kind regards

     – FrankMK May 17 '23 at 08:43
  • The German translation in the textbook has the subjunctive form "ginge", not "gegangen wäre". Equivalent German 2nd conditional (present counterfactual) if-clauses are: "Wenn ich Geld hätte,...", "Wenn ich der Lehrer wäre,...", "Wenn ich es wüsste,...". There is nothing uncommon about this second conditional usage in English. – Shoe May 17 '23 at 09:32
  • So wrong is not right, hahaha. I think its only a translating issue (German usage versus English usage) maybe it leads also to misconception in other worlds and languages....thats why talking is so importend :-) – FrankMK May 17 '23 at 09:43
  • Yes, the past tense form in English has several other uses than simply to talk about past events. It is important that English learners know this. – Shoe May 17 '23 at 09:48
  • = '"If I were at a school in Wales, I would play rugby". Improbable is the reading parallel to "I've no memory of what happened before the nearby explosion when I was 20 and in the trenches in France. But if [as you say] I went to a school in Wales, I would remember some Welsh, surely?" – Edwin Ashworth May 17 '23 at 10:49

5 Answers5

2

The sentence is fine if the intention is to express a counterfactual about the present. The use of the article a, lack of contractions, lack of context, etc. might give the sentence a slightly unnatural sound to some ears. It may help to imagine a colloquial conversation that could motivate such an utterance:

A: If you're so interested in rugby, why don't you play it?

B: Because no one else I know is interested.

A: Really? In Wales kids play rugby every day at recess.

B: Well, if I went to school in Wales, I'd play rugby. But here football is about as close as you're gonna get.

  • In your conversation, what exactly does I'd play rugby mean? Does it mean your personal preference or something else in the hypothetical situation? – JK2 May 17 '23 at 01:54
  • @JK2 It means you would be playing rugby because you'd have the opportunity to do so (as opposed to just the desire). –  May 17 '23 at 02:50
  • Then, shouldn't we say Well, if I went to school in Wales, I'd be playing rugby instead? – JK2 May 17 '23 at 02:57
  • 1
    You could. Both variations are possible, the differences between them being too slight to warrant getting into really. –  May 17 '23 at 02:59
1

When the simple past is used in the if-clause, it doesn't mean that the condition refers to the past. We use this syntax to express a condition about the present. To express a condition about the past, we use the past perfect in the if-clause:

Present counterfactual: If I went ...

Past counterfactural: If I had gone ...

Barmar
  • 3,142
  • 10
  • 18
  • Hi Barmer, I never came across such an expressions like in that schoolbook. Personally, I would not use this form. So a "pastform of Verb" to describe a current, present situation. I think the most non native English students worldwide will be confused by this. It leads to misconceptions. Whereby: "If I had been to a school in Wales, I would have played rugby" is easy to comprehend. If the phrase in the book wants to express a present situation, then it should be: If I would attend a school in Wales, I would play rugby. – FrankMK May 17 '23 at 09:01
  • Must be a BrE vs AmE difference, because I don't think I've ever heard an American phrase it that way. – Barmar May 17 '23 at 16:40
  • @FrankMK He's right, this is not a past tense. "If I went" is a conditional counterfactual; "If I had been to a school in Wales, I would have played rugby" [past conditional]///"If I went to a school in Wales, I would play rugby". present but a condition. If you wanted to, you would look up this conditional usage: if clause in the simple past, main clause would + infinitive. – Lambie May 18 '23 at 14:49
0

There's nothing wrong with "If I went to a school in Wales, I would play rugby".

Apparently, the book assumes that the speaker currently goes to a school in Germany, and therefore that the speaker will not play rugby because it's not a readily available option to a school student in Germany. Based on this current state of affairs in the actual world where the speaker resides, the speaker can choose to describe an alternate world where the speaker goes to a school in Wales, where playing rugby is an option readily available to school students.

Since this alternate world does not share space-time with the actual world, the speaker feels remoteness in describing situations in the alternate world, which is reflected in the past form of the verbs went and would.

shouldn't it be: "I would have played rugby"

This form should be used to describe a past situation in the alternate world. But there's no contextual reason to use a more complicated form in the grammar book.

JK2
  • 1,199
  • 1
  • 14
  • 30
0

In matters scholastic, go to is an idiomatic expression for attend:

I go to a school in Wales → I attend a school in Wales.

Applied in your sentence, you get:

If I attended a school in Wales, I would play rugby.

Now, I think you can see that this is simply a counterfactual (“subjunctive mood”) construction:

If I attended a school in Wales [but I don’t], I would play rugby.

Tinfoil Hat
  • 653
  • 4
  • 9
0

best expression,

I think this expression would not lead to misconceptions !!

Also "When I went ..." describes a past situation.

FrankMK
  • 235
  • 1
  • 3
  • 12
  • Many native speakers, including me as a BrE native speaker, regard "would" in the "if-clause" as non-standard. The use of the past tense in other contexts than talking about the past is in evidence in statements such as: "She said that she didn't like rap music". Or "I thought it might be a good idea to talk about it." Both past tenses refer to present states. – Shoe May 19 '23 at 07:14