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I suspect dialectal variation is involved concerning whether "has Vpp" is used properly with "since" in relation to durative and punctual predicates in the following. Note also that dialectal variation is not restricted to AmE/BrE difference; it could also involve internal differences within AmE or BrE.

It is over 20 years since John has died for his country.

It is over 20 years since John has lived in this country.

I've seen the following sentence in Practical English by Michael Swan:

I've known her since I’ve lived in this street.

If you reject the first two sentences, do you reject the third one? If not, could you explain the difference?

Previous threads do not deal with the variation in acceptability of present perfect in since-clauses.

Apollyon
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    Please expand on your "wondering". – Mari-Lou A Nov 01 '21 at 09:22
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    Did you create these examples yourself? Please add your source and why you think either or both are right or wrong. P.S The title which is grammaticak has a different meaning to what you probably intended, "since" also means "because". – Mari-Lou A Nov 01 '21 at 09:31
  • @Mari-LouA I've seen the following sentence in a British usage book:

    I've known her since I’ve lived in this street.

     – Apollyon Nov 01 '21 at 09:57
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    Adding the source to a sentence is good start, but you need to give the book's title. So, the first two sentences you made up?? You realise that the word order and word choice (over 20 years) in the two examples are quite different from the sentence you are quoting. – Mari-Lou A Nov 01 '21 at 09:58
  • Yes, the first two sentences are made-up. See the edit. – Apollyon Nov 01 '21 at 10:14
  • I would not like to challenge Swann, and I confess that the sentences he provides sound natural. But some of them, including the one you've quoted, do not rest well with me. I might say this one, but I would never write it. – Jeffrey Carney Nov 01 '21 at 11:10
  • @JeffreyCarney Maybe there's dialectal variation? What's your dialect? – Apollyon Nov 01 '21 at 11:17
  • I'm American. Swan mentions such differences in the item above this one, and I was hoping he'd do so here. I'm particularly struck by this one: You've drunk about ten cups of tea since you’ve been sitting here. I'm sure I've heard it and never noticed it, but seeing it now just annoys me. – Jeffrey Carney Nov 01 '21 at 11:21
  • What do you mean by "Swan mentions such differences"? Does he indicate it as a BrE/AmE difference? – Apollyon Nov 01 '21 at 11:51
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    Does this answer your question? Present Perfect after Since – None Nov 01 '21 at 12:58
  • @None Not in the least. That thread's answer ignores dialectal/idiolectal variation. – Apollyon Nov 01 '21 at 14:07
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    @Apollyon If you are so sure there is a dialectical variation then you should rephrase your question. And I think your quote from Swan is incomplete. In my edition he says "The tense in the since-clause can be present perfect or past, depending on the meaning." (bold is mine). In your fist sentence you are talking about a moment in time, not an extended period. One can certainly live in a country for 20 years, I doubt one can die over a period of twenty years, unless very exceptional circumstances that would need explaining. – None Nov 01 '21 at 14:57
  • I am saying the third example (and for some people, the second) displays dialectal variation. – Apollyon Nov 01 '21 at 15:03
  • The first is brought up for contrastive purposes to illustrate the effect of durative vs. punctual predicates. – Apollyon Nov 01 '21 at 15:07
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    You cannot invent sentences then finally admit that your sentences were based on one you saw, without quoting the source, then when you see a few downvotes remember to add the book's title and the book's author. This could have been a very interesting question but instead of explaining your dilemma you simply mention,:I am wondering if "has Vpp" is used properly with "since" in the following: No wonder Astralbee is peeved and refuses to address the third and ONLY grammatical sentence. – Mari-Lou A Nov 01 '21 at 15:09
  • @Mari-LouA Actually, the second is judged acceptable by at least one Brit. – Apollyon Nov 01 '21 at 15:12
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    "It's been over 20 years since John lived..".Would be an improvement. – Mari-Lou A Nov 01 '21 at 15:14
  • The crux of the issue is actually the relevance of durative vs. punctual predicates in the since-clause. – Apollyon Nov 01 '21 at 15:15
  • Consider what Jeffrey quoted from Swan's book: You've drunk about ten cups of tea since you’ve been sitting here. – Apollyon Nov 01 '21 at 15:16
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    So why do you hide behind two sentences that you made up without saying that you are the author, and at least explain what it is you don't understand. There's no point in doing it in the comments. Edit and say it in the actual question. – Mari-Lou A Nov 01 '21 at 15:19
  • I am looking for people well versed in English dialectal differences. Btw, the third example, which you think is grammatical, is viewed by Astralbee as "wrong." – Apollyon Nov 01 '21 at 15:23
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    I think the problem here is that we're hanging on to a false premise that there's a dialectical difference at work. Kelly Clarkson is hardly British, and is clearly referring to the ongoing present state "Since You [have] Been Gone." Yes, this is a duplicate; https://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/219203/present-perfect-after-since covers everything satisfactorily. – Andy Bonner Nov 01 '21 at 17:38
  • @AndyBonner Don't you see there's also dialectal variation within British or American English, which is not a homogeneous whole? – Apollyon Nov 01 '21 at 23:30
  • @AndyBonner hat thread claims "It's been so long since we have talked" is wrong but does not address sentences involving durative predicates such as "have lived here." – Apollyon Nov 01 '21 at 23:34
  • @AndyBonner None of the sentences (which that thread treats as correct) involves present perfect in the since-clause. I don't know why you said it "covers everything satisfactorily. " – Apollyon Nov 02 '21 at 00:04
  • @AndyBonner I'm sorry that you haven't appreciated the importance of this question. If you asked Brits, as I have, whether 'It's been a long time since he has lived here" is okay, you'd find they'd say it's acceptable. Anyway, I'm often shocked by the level of ignorance people display here, and even more so by how such ignorance prevails to the point of closing an interesting question. – Apollyon Nov 09 '21 at 05:57
  • @Mari-LouA I'm sorry that you haven't appreciated the importance of this question. If you asked Brits, as I have, whether 'It's been a long time since he has lived here" is okay, you'd find they'd say it's acceptable. Anyway, I'm often shocked by the level of ignorance people display here, and even more so by how such ignorance prevails to the point of closing an interesting question. – Apollyon Nov 09 '21 at 06:00
  • I can accept the second sentence: It is over 20 years since John has lived in this country, which means it's over 20 years since John left this country. The third sentence is fine, but its structure is different from the second. It means I still live in this street. A better version is: I've known her since I've been living in this street. The first sentence is totally unacceptable. – Stephen Jan 10 '22 at 05:00

1 Answers1

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"Since", in this context, means from a particular time in the past until a later time. A 'particular' time would be a fixed event that began the time period, not the period itself.

We only say someone 'has died' when referring to their current status (ie they are dead). The fixed event is when they died, or their death. So, in your first example, you need to remove the word 'has' for it to make sense.

"Living" in this country is not a fixed event, so in the second example, you need to refer to his beginning to live here.

It is over 20 years since John died for his country.

It is over 20 years since John began living in this country.

Astralbee
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  • Thank you. Just to make sure, do you think "It is over 20 years since John has lived in this country" is wrong? – Apollyon Nov 01 '21 at 08:59
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    @Apollyon Yes, it is wrong, see my alternative suggestion. It is 20 years since he began living there. – Astralbee Nov 01 '21 at 09:07
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    @Apollyon with "since + PPerfect" you need a fixed date or time: John has lived here since 2000** but with a total length of time, it's John has lived here for over 20 years** – Mari-Lou A Nov 01 '21 at 09:30
  • I've seen the following sentence in a British usage book:

    I've known her since I’ve lived in this street.

     – Apollyon Nov 01 '21 at 09:57
  • Could you address the edit to my question? – Apollyon Nov 01 '21 at 10:59
  • @Apollyon I've already answered it. I'm not updating my answer every time you update your question. The last example you added is wrong for the same reasons that the other two are. If you read the logic of my answer, you should be able to apply that to the third, too. To be honest, I make a point of avoiding your questions because you have a track record of belligerence and not accepting answers. I only answered this in error, I didn't see it was you. – Astralbee Nov 01 '21 at 12:04
  • Your judgment obviously conflicts with that of the British grammarian Michael Swan. – Apollyon Nov 01 '21 at 12:21