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I have engaged in a discussion after trying to change

Had Christopher Tolkien ever publicly spoken about George R. R. Martin or his work?

to

Has Christopher Tolkien ever publicly spoken about George R. R. Martin or his work?

in this Sci-fi question's title.

I have learned that past perfect is used when there are two past actions and one occurs before the other, as in "had Christopher spoken before Jeremy cried?".

The asker, on the other hand, disputes it and upholds that

When you're talking about someone who is deceased, it is customary to use the pluperfect.

I did not find any authoritative claim to support that. Is it really a thing?

LoremIpsum
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  • There are two actions (events) though:one written in the question and one implied (or already known). – Lucian Sava Aug 28 '21 at 17:32
  • There is a canonical post on ELL discussing the hows, whens and whys of the Present Perfect https://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/13255/canonical-post-2-what-is-the-perfect-and-how-should-i-use-it – Mari-Lou A Aug 28 '21 at 17:56
  • “it is quite possible to express the same time sequence in a sentence which permits either a simple past or a past perfect: //OK Shaw had established a substantial literary reputation before his first play was produced. OR //OK Shaw established a substantial literary reputation before his first play was produced.// In terms of literal meaning, these two sentences amount to the same thing.” – Mari-Lou A Aug 28 '21 at 18:01
  • @LucianSava What is the one implied? Furthermore, in a title, context is not there to imply anything. – LoremIpsum Aug 28 '21 at 18:09
  • @Mari-LouA Thanks, but the quote you mention does contain two past events (one before the other) and as such it does not apply here. Here we only have a single event. – LoremIpsum Aug 28 '21 at 18:10
  • No one has to specifically mention that CT talked about other authors before his death, it can be implied. Especially if he held talks, lectures and public discussions about literature. I'd prefer the simple past usage ( Did he ever...) but the Past Perfect sentence is also appropriate. – Mari-Lou A Aug 28 '21 at 18:21
  • @Mari-LouA So you are suggesting that the full sentence would be: "Had Christopher Tolkien ever publicly spoken about George R. R. Martin or his work before he held talks, lectures, etc.?" If not, what exactly is the implied action? Or maybe would you dispute that past perfect always needs two past events to occur? – LoremIpsum Aug 28 '21 at 18:23
  • Now if I wanted an easy 10 points I could agree with you that the Past Perfect must only be used in conjunction with a stated previous action, but which grammars say that? Both forms (SP and Past P) are valid, and you can either take my word and that of the other two users or leave it. – Mari-Lou A Aug 28 '21 at 18:24
  • Let us continue this discussion in chat. – LoremIpsum Aug 28 '21 at 18:25
  • You've already been told in a previous comment: before his death, or if you need a verb for a better understanding, before he died. – Lucian Sava Aug 28 '21 at 18:47

3 Answers3

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"Has he ever spoken about..." sounds like he still has the chance to speak if he hasn't spoken yet. So it's not correct, because he's dead.

"Ever" is often used with the perfect tenses, therefore it may indeed be "had he ever spoken." But this one is rarer than the perfectly fine "did he ever speak."

Banter
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The English perfect is extremely difficult to get right because it has several different meanings. This one is the existential perfect, which concerns whether something has happened or not. The perfect can also indicate recency or relevance at a particular moment in time, and someone who is dead is unlikely to have done something recently.

I don't think either "had" or "has" is outright wrong here. If it is in a context where you are discussing Christopher Tolkien, the perfect could be appropriate. But to my ears, the most neutral way to ask the question without additional context is: "Did Christopher Tolkien ever speak publicly about George R. R. Martin or his work?"

nschneid
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  • "If it is in a context where you are discussing Christopher Tolkien, the perfect could be appropriate." Which perfect? – LoremIpsum Aug 28 '21 at 17:03
  • "Had" if relative to some time in his life: "When he first met George R. R. Martin, had he ever spoken publicly about his work?" – nschneid Aug 28 '21 at 17:25
  • The example you gave is valid because there are two events, meeting (chronologically the latter) and speaking (chronologically the former). What I would say is that past perfect with a single event does not make sense. – LoremIpsum Aug 28 '21 at 18:14
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Has Christopher Tolkien ever publicly spoken about George R. R. Martin or his work?

The present Perfect is often used with "ever" to ask about an experience in the past, for example

  • Have you ever seen the Sistine Chapel?

That person may not have visited the Vatican City or have seen the Sistine Chapel but it does not exclude the possibility of their experiencing that event at some point in the future.

  • Has your child ever eaten shellfish?

Likewise someone may never have eaten shellfish in their life but this situation could change next week, next month or next year.

The Present Perfect construction is not usually used with people who are dead. It is impossible for Christopher Tolkien, a person who died in January 2020, to presently speak about Martin. The act of speaking cannot be performed or repeated in the present nor in the future.

It would therefore be more natural to ask

Did Christopher Tolkien ever speak publicly about George R.R. Martin?

The act is confined to a specific moment in the past.

The original construction using the Past Perfect is also correct; albeit it suggests that before his death Christopher Tolkien had discussed works of other writers in public, not only his father's, which is totally plausible.

[Before his death in 2020] Had C.Tolkien ever spoken publicly about George R.R. Martin

Mari-Lou A
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  • About your last paragraph: That would be redundant, wouldn't it? If someone did something that occurred necessarily before his death. – LoremIpsum Aug 28 '21 at 18:12
  • It's not a given that the son of a famous writer talks in public about other authors. It is implied that CT may have. – Mari-Lou A Aug 28 '21 at 18:16
  • But what does CT having or not having talked about other authors has to do with the discussion? – LoremIpsum Aug 28 '21 at 18:19
  • @LoremIpsum CT was a known personality, he wrote, and curated his father's works. It is plausible that he attended lectures, and held talks about his father works and also mentioned the names of other authors BEFORE his death. The "before his death" is implied. – Mari-Lou A Aug 28 '21 at 18:40