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Before entering my question,

I have to say that I have already asked a similar question today. However it contains some grammar errors so that it is not very good for a discussion about how to break down the use of "where" and analyze it.

I asked this new but similar question because the previous post has some valuable feedbacks I think would probably be helpful to other learners so that I don't want to close it or delete it.

Now, entering my question:

I am not sure my analyzing the use of "where" in the examples (1), (2), (3) and (4) is correct. Is my analysis correct?

The example (3) and (4) are the ones that sound wrong to me, but I remember some books say "where" can be "which...in/at/from".

My analysis:

(1) This is a private beach, where its members play balls and take a sunbath when the weather is good.

is equal to

(2) This is a private beach, at which its members play balls and take a sunbath when the weather is good.

is equal to

(3) This is a private beach, which its members play balls and take a sunbath at when the weather is good.

might also be equal to this one??

(4) This is a private beach, which its members play balls at and take a sunbath at when the weather is good.

vincentlin
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1 Answers1

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We play ball (or, better still, ball games) rather than balls, which can have other unfortunate connotations.

Other than that, you are correct that (1) and (2) are OK but (3) and (4) sound clumsy. In some contexts, it's OK to say in casual speech something like "This is the tub (which) I bath my dog in", but it really doesn't work with your longer and more formal sentence.,

Kate Bunting
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  • So (3) and (4) are grammatically correct, but they just sound clumsy? Should I include (3) and (4) when I explain the use of relative adverb "where" to my friend? I mean I can tell her that there are these forms that express the same meaning, but these forms should be avoided because they are clumsy? – vincentlin Jul 14 '20 at 10:04
  • No, I think 3 and 4 are grammatically incorrect, in addition to being awkward. And when we're talking about playing games, it is very unusual to use the plural of ball -- the correct phrase is "play ball". A native American speaker is unlikely to just say "play ball" in that context; he would either specify the game (baseball, football, bocce) or say "play games". An awkward use of "balls" can imply testicles, for which "balls" is a slang term. – rcook Jul 14 '20 at 12:48
  • @rcook Balls can mean testicles? Oh ok. I will avoid using that too often. Thank you for saving me from more future awkwardness. On the other hand, I remember it is correct to say this: "This is a restaurant, which I often eat food at." That is why I think my example (3) or even (4) can be correct. So, could you explain this subject matter more and maybe tell me how the restaurant example is different from example (3) and (4)? – vincentlin Jul 15 '20 at 09:10
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    Your restaurant example also sounds clumsy and incorrect. I think correct would be "This is a restaurant at which I often eat." We wouldn't use 'food' after 'eat', since if we eat it then it is assumed to be food (like 'clapping' and 'hands'). I think most people would say "This is a restaurant where I eat.", also grammatically correct, and 'at which' sounds stilted to some people. Some people might also say "This is a restaurant I eat at.", which is common use but improper -- one should not end a sentence with a preposition. – rcook Jul 15 '20 at 11:07
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    I'm sure the use of 'balls' to mean testicles is unexpected to people from some other cultures, though I think some others also use it that way. Just to make it more confusing, that slang use gets extended to another slang usage in which having large (or steel or brass) testicles is somehow connected with courage, or at least brashness. "That took real balls!" or "He's got balls of steel" is supposed to mean that someone was brave enough to do something, therefore must have "real" testicles, applied to women as well as men. – rcook Jul 15 '20 at 11:15
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    That, of course, was what I meant by 'unfortunate connotations'! There is debate about how wrong it is to end a sentence with a preposition (see this), but I still think (3) and (4) don't work as English sentences. – Kate Bunting Jul 15 '20 at 11:59
  • @KateBunting Yes, I agree the debate about ending a sentence with a preposition never ends. Some say that is ok but some say it isn't correct. Personally, I think it is ok, because I have read that kind of usage many times in books, online, etc. So, do you think the example (3) and (4) might be correct for those who are ok with ending a sentence with a preposition? – vincentlin Jul 15 '20 at 15:57
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    As I said, I still think (3) and (4) don't work as English sentences. – Kate Bunting Jul 15 '20 at 18:10