1

Thank you for showing interest in this post. Please have a look at the would in the following excerpts from The Economist:

Conveniently for politicians, some of the pain of high inflation would be borne by foreign investors, whose share of public debt exceeds 30% in many rich countries. “In a crunch, will Chinese debt-holders be treated as senior to us pensioners?” asks Mr Rogoff. But less foreign investment in years to come would need to be set against that advantage. A perception that a nominally independent central bank was in fact a creature of politicians would create a risk premium on investment that would slow growth throughout the economy.

Inflation would bring arbitrary redistributions of wealth to the disadvantage of the poor, just as Keynes observed it to have done in the late 1910s. Richer people are more likely to hold the houses and shares that rise in value with inflation, not to mention mortgages that would be inflated away alongside government debt. Higher inflation would also provide a bail-out that favoured more indebted companies over the less indebted.

I suppose all the would here are used more or less in the same way, but I would like to know what their exact meaning is. (I found Why "that would be me"? (part 2) relevant.)

Threads seemingly related to such usage of would: Thread 1 Thread 2 Thread 3

Another thing that came to my attention is that, when a main clause has would as its modal auxilliary, the verb of the dependent clause bound to the main clause tends to take the past tense form, as illustrated by was and favoured above, and I cannot fathom why. Below is another example:

The first sign of any debt trouble in the rich world would probably be rising inflation. At first, that might be a relief, given the present deflationary risk and the recent history of persistently insufficient inflation. It would be a sign that the economy was recovering.

Yet another example in another context.

A vaccine would not just save lives; it would change the course of the pandemic in two separate, if related, ways. It would protect those who were vaccinated from getting sick; and by reducing the number of susceptible people it would prevent the virus from spreading, thus also protecting the unvaccinated.

The examples should suffice for you to notice the pattern.

On comments: It is not really about irrealis, because clearly there are subject-verb agreements in the above examples, as illustrated by the contrast between was and were.

Updated: There are at least two sources putting forward rules but shying away from enunciating the logic behind.

One is Michael Swan's Practical English Usage (p. 232):

Past instead of would...

Would, like will, is avoided in subordinate clauses; instead, we generally use past verbs. This happens in if-clauses, and also after most other conjunctions.

If I had lots of money, I would give some to anybody who asked for it. (not If I would have... who would ask for it.)

Would you follow me wherever I went? (not ... wherever I would go?)

In a perfect world, you would be able to say exactly what you thought. (not .. .-what you would think)

I would always try to help anybody who was in trouble, whether I knew them or not.

Another source is Wikipedia.

See further Thread 1 Thread 2 Thread 3 Thread 4

If you would like to go academic, please refer to Conditionals: A Comprehensive Empirical Analysis (Declerck and Reed, 2001)

The rationale behind using the past tense seems to be that it can creat a sense of being distant from the reality to amplify the impression that what is being taked about is merely hypothetical. But it still strikes me as odd.

Please pitch in and share your thoughts.

ColleenV
  • 11,971
  • 13
  • 47
  • 85
  • 3
    I don't see anything to be confused about. The writer is speculating about what would happen in a time of high inflation. The word is being used in only one sense. – Kate Bunting Apr 25 '20 at 12:28
  • @Kate Bunting Thanks. Can you help with the second question I have at the bottom? I have met such choices of past simple tense serveral times in sentences where "would" is present to make speculations, so they are not talking about what really happened in the past. – grammar-in-action Apr 25 '20 at 12:58
  • It's the past tense for irrealis (counter-factual) clauses. It's similar to the use of the past for irrealis conditionals (eg "If I saw him"); but for reasons I am not clear about, this construction does not generally use the exceptional ('subjunctive') "were" in place of "was". – Colin Fine Apr 25 '20 at 13:22
  • @Colin Fine Thanks. I am aware of the presence of "irrealis were" in English, but doesn't it often appear in if-conditionals? And to the best of my knowledge, such "irrealis" construction is peculiar to "were". Can this pattern extend to other verbs as well, as in the case of "favoured" above? – grammar-in-action Apr 25 '20 at 13:30
  • 1
    @grammar-in-action: No, the past tense is normal for irrealis conditionals: If I saw, If they went, If you wanted. The tense used in these constructions is precisely the simple past - except for that pesky "were". (Historically it was the past subjunctive, in Old English: but that has fallen together with the simple past). – Colin Fine Apr 25 '20 at 13:38
  • @Colin Fine I see. But how can you relate what you said to the examples above? It seems that this "irrealis" construction can't be used independently of if-conditionals, – grammar-in-action Apr 25 '20 at 14:00
  • @grammar-in-action: I don't know. That's why I said "for reasons I'm not clear about" (and why I commented rather than tryingto answer). These sentences clearly are semantically irrealis, even though there's no explicit conditional. And as a native speaker, I assert that past is the normal tense for such cases. I can't account for the non-appearance of subjunctive were though. – Colin Fine Apr 25 '20 at 15:02
  • @Colin Fine I guess I would have to take it as it stands then. But do you find this way of writing common? Or is it just idiosyncratic? – grammar-in-action Apr 25 '20 at 15:11
  • With respect to would (here in the comments), the final paragraph (quotation) is missing context. If it's talking about something that hasn't happened yet, then it's a conditional; if it's talking about something that did happen, then it's using would relative to a point in time in the past: Galileo was* born in 1564. In 1616, the Pope would tell him to abandon his theory that the Earth revolved around the Sun.* – Jason Bassford Apr 25 '20 at 15:27
  • To see acceptable usage, just look in a dictionary. If you want to know why we've come to use would in all the senses we have, that's a much different question, and one that might not be easily answerable, if at all. – Jason Bassford Apr 25 '20 at 15:31
  • @Jason Bassford Hi, I'm pretty sure you have commented on my other posts as well. It is certainly not of the past future tense, but I'm not sure whether it is a conditional. It is talking about the pending COVID-19 vaccine. – grammar-in-action Apr 25 '20 at 15:33
  • @grammar-in-action But from this question, there's no way of knowing if it's a historical future tense, because you haven't provided enough context to be sure. However, assuming it's made clear that it's talking about the future, then it has to be part of a conditional—as I've already said in response to your other questions in the other forum. (If a vaccine [is / were] developed, it would...) – Jason Bassford Apr 25 '20 at 15:55
  • @Jason Bassford Well noted. But what about the second question? Do you have any other ideas than that such use of simple past tense just seems natural? – grammar-in-action Apr 26 '20 at 00:34
  • @ColinFine because the subjunctive has largely fallen out of use in the UK in the last several decades (centuries after the demise of Old English). This is probably attributable to the fact that the past subjunctive merged with the simple past indicative (except for to be because it is irregular) and the present subjunctive merged with the present indicative (except for to be and the third person singular, as in "it's important that she certify the result"). – phoog Apr 26 '20 at 06:30
  • @phoog: I think that's what I said in a comment above (though I didn't mention the present subjunctive). My puzzle is why the remaining subjunctive form were does not seem to be possible in this construction, while it is still alive for some people in a conditional. – Colin Fine Apr 26 '20 at 09:44
  • @ColinFine I see what you mean. I think I misread your comment. I can imagine "it would be a sign that the economy were recovering" in the 18th or maybe 19th century, but I am not confident that this imagination has any basis in reality. If I'm right, it would suggest that "were" fell out of use in this construction earlier than elsewhere, but perhaps there's something else going on entirely . – phoog Apr 26 '20 at 17:07
  • -1 to the "question" because it reads more like a strongly opinionated editorial, which is furthermore based on totally false assumptions. There's nothing at all "quaint" or unusual about this writing "style." – TypeIA Apr 27 '20 at 12:58
  • @TypeIA I didn't mean it to give such impressions now that I've come to realise that "would" is more like a hedging device that is widely and profusedly used to make speculations in both informal and formal settings. SInce you used such strong terms as"totally false assumptions", I was wondering if you would like to share your thoughts on why the past tense needs to be used in the dependent clauses whose main clauses use "would" to make tentaive statements. – grammar-in-action Apr 27 '20 at 13:47

0 Answers0