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There are two ways of negating a modal sentence:

A) negation of modality: you [need not] go there

B) negation of proposition: you must [not go there]

With deontic modality we can either deny a permission to do something:

(1) You [may not] stay with us

or give a permission not to do something:

(2) You may [not stay with us]

Example (2) is not an idiomatic way to express propositional negation. How do you do it?

Vsevolod IV
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  • "You may not stay with us" is dependent on context. It is absolutely idiomatic. You missed this meaning of the modal: He may not stay with us. He may stay at a hotel. – Lambie Sep 07 '20 at 18:13

2 Answers2

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It's not normally used because it's easily confused with the denial of permission, the more usual and less confusing thing to say would be

"You don't have to stay with us" with emphasis on "have".

However in a suitable context and in speech rather than written text it is possible to use "You may not stay with us" to mean that staying with them is optional but make the meaning clear by changing the emphasis and timing of the statement. In that case you would say.

"You may (pause) not stay with us"

This is quite subtle, though, and "You don't have to stay with us" or "You don't have to stay with us if you'd rather not" would be less likely to be misinterpreted.

BoldBen
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  • Would it be natural to use "may nót" if it occurs in the middle of conversation? - 3:15. Time to go. - May I not go? - okay, you may not go, Jacob. The thing is, "have to" doesn't express this idea of permission; if Jacob asks: "do I have to go?" he does't ask for the permission not to go. Is there a way to ask for such a permission in English? – Vsevolod IV Nov 24 '19 at 14:48
  • @VsevolodIV If someone says "Do I have to go?" they are asking whether going is compulsory or optional for them. In fact the normal interpretation would be that they are asking for permission not to go. "May I not go" is grammatically correct and means exactly what you say but it now sounds dated and many native speakers might not recognise what was being asked even though they would, almost certainly, recognise the opposite question "May I go?" – BoldBen Nov 25 '19 at 16:47
  • @VsevolodIV A common alternative is to use "Can" as an alternative to "May". "Can", of course, literally means "Be able" but is frequently used to mean "May". This means that "Can I drive that car ?" could mean either "Do I have the skill to drive that car?" or "Do I have permission to drive that car?". Sorry but colloquial English is like that. – BoldBen Nov 25 '19 at 16:55
  • This is totally dependent on context. People don't go around saying to themselves: I won't use "He may not stay there" because it might mean something else. That is just silly, afaic. – Lambie Sep 07 '20 at 18:25
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Conversationally speaking, this is quite clear:

Denial of permission

  • Mum, may I go to the movies this afternoon?

  • No, Johnny, you may not.

may as Possibility:

  • Person 1: John may not stay with us next week.
  • Person 2: Oh? Is that right?
  • Person 1: Yes, that's right. He may stay at a hotel.

Denial of permission again:

  • Person 1: John may not stay with us next week.
  • Person 2: Oh? Is that right?
  • Person 1: Yes, I have already told him he may not stay here. He has to go somewhere else.

The contexts make clear what is meant.

Lambie
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  • It is much clearer, and I think more common, to use "John might not stay with us" in your second example. This avoids the ambiguity of "may." – randomhead Nov 13 '21 at 14:28
  • @randomhead "might" not is not denial of permission in 2. "may not" is. "Mary, I am telling you that you may not stay here but you may [I'm allowing it] stay in hotel. – Lambie Nov 13 '21 at 15:19
  • You're talking about your last example. I was talking about the second one. – randomhead Nov 13 '21 at 15:27
  • @randomhead No, I am not: Person 1: John may not stay with us next week. [He doesn't have permission to stay with us.] He may stay at a hotel. [He has permission to stay at a hotel]. "might not" is not a denial of permission. "You may not have tea now." "You may have it at 6 o'clock like everyone else". – Lambie Nov 13 '21 at 15:30
  • ...in that case "may" is not being used as a possibility, which you said it was in the heading. – randomhead Nov 13 '21 at 15:39
  • @randomhead I have provided two examples. I have explained them. I was not trying to avoid ambiguity. I was trying to show two different uses for may (denial of permission and possibility). Your comment re 2) is erroneous. We often use "may" for possibility; it is less strong than "might". That is the whole point. Now, please stop. Thanks. – Lambie Nov 13 '21 at 15:47
  • I am aware that you were not avoiding ambiguity. I pointed out (for OP's benefit) that if you had been you would have used "might" instead of "may," and indeed real people speaking in real conversations often do just that. – randomhead Nov 13 '21 at 15:52
  • @randomhead You say "might" is much clearer and that most people would say that in conversation. English speakers when speaking understand this use of "may". So, instead of saying most of them would say might, you could add that one can also say might. – Lambie Nov 13 '21 at 15:57