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Can we use borrow as I have in the above sentence in a sense like;

He borrowed (from someone for) me some money.

I wonder if there was a better way of expressing the idea that I am meant to.

Clarification: borrow there is not mistakenly used instead of lend.

Zeeshan Ali
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10 Answers10

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You could, in theory, however it would only cause confusion in my opinion. For the sake of clarity, I would go with "he borrowed some money for me."

Mark
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    +1 It may be worth emphasising that the potential confusion ("Did they actually mean 'lent'") is exacerbated by OP being a non-native speaker - even though OPs construction is perfectly correct. –  Jan 29 '19 at 15:56
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    I'd agree with @Bilkokuya. As a native speaker, if someone said the phrase to me I would have assumed they meant "he lent me some money." – Dan Jan 30 '19 at 15:26
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Yes, in the proper context, that is grammatical. It would mean that he borrowed money on your behalf. It is colloquial, not formal. The use of such 'ethical dative' constructions is regional.

I have to thank John for helping me get this business started. He borrowed me a sizable chunk of change from his venture-capitalist buddies.

P.S. I think from some of the comments below that a few visitors to the site are concerned that I've given you a bum steer, some bad advice. You're not using the word borrow as some uneducated speakers do who use it in a non-standard manner, as if it meant "lend". An example from Nelson Algren's novel The Man with the Golden Arm:

Frankie dealt ... skipping Sparrow, who professed to be too broke to play...
"Borrow me a dirty sawbuck, I wanna play too," he asked the players on either side of him, twice each.
Each time each answered, looking straight ahead at the dealer's eyeshade, "Never play against my own money."
"Then borrow me a dirty deuce."
Sparrow was always careful to identify any money he was able to borrow as dirty, suspecting that he thus reduced the obligation slightly.

Don't use it that way, or people will think you flunked out of school.

Neither a borrower nor a borrower be.
--Polonius

TimR
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    I think it is worth pointing out that saying "He borrowed me some money" when the person means "He loaned me some money" is quite a common but bad error. I would steer clear of saying "he borrowed me some money" in favour of "he borrowed some money for me" to avoid people assuming I meant borrowed and have poor grammar. – Eric Nolan Jan 29 '19 at 11:32
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    Tᴚoɯɐuo - I think you're wrong, although that is commonly said. Should be "He borrowed a sizeable chunk of change for me". @Eric - that's really common in Manchester (UK) - "can you do us a borrow?" – Justin Jan 29 '19 at 11:45
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    @Justin: It's really no different than He found me a private detective. It's a dative construction. – TimR Jan 29 '19 at 12:29
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    It is quite different in that borrowed is normally opposed with lent, just like learn is opposed to teach (whereas found has no such giver-receiver indication). It can seem like an error/colloquialism of this kind https://english.stackexchange.com/q/117395/3347, even if it isn't. Agreed with the other posters that it is far better to use borrowed X for me. – Matthew Read Jan 29 '19 at 16:18
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    I am surprised to see a native speaker endorse this usage! To me (UK) it sounds like a foreigner's solecism. – TonyK Jan 29 '19 at 16:56
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    @TonyK Not to me (native US speaker)—I could see myself saying this once in while, although it does maybe sound slightly childish or uneducated. – user91988 Jan 29 '19 at 17:05
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    Borrowed would apply to “me” not “some money”. While this is possibly a colloquialism, it is not grammatically correct. – jmoreno Jan 29 '19 at 17:05
  • @jmoreno It's no different gramatically from "He loaned me some money". (Though the meaning is different.) – David Schwartz Jan 29 '19 at 17:41
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    I think the point of many of these comments is that while it may be technically grammatical and could be understood, it's not idiomatic because it sounds more like an error than the literal meaning. – Barmar Jan 29 '19 at 17:47
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    It might be used in some dialect (or someone trying to fake one), but it's emphatically NOT the way an educated person would speak. Something like "John helped me by arranging a loan..." would be the way the idea would be expressed. – jamesqf Jan 29 '19 at 18:14
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    @DavidSchwartz At least in my dialect (that I am aware of), "to borrow" doesn't take an indirect object. "To loan" does. – chepner Jan 29 '19 at 19:13
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    @chepner Indirect objects are generic features to indicate for or to whom something is done in English grammar. There aren't verbs that can have such objects and verbs that can't as a grammatical rule -- if a verb is used in a context where the action has an indirect object, then the verb takes an indirect object. As with direct objects, there are some verbs that are rarely used in ways that have one (like "sleep") but if they are, then they take an object (like "he slept the deep, peaceful sleep of the innocent"). It may be unusual to see "borrow" with one, but it's not a grammatical issue. – David Schwartz Jan 29 '19 at 20:04
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    @DavidSchwartz No, not all verbs take indirect objects. I can say "I shoveled the sidewalk for my neighbor", but I can't say "*I shoveled my neighbor the sidewalk". "Borrow" is the same. The indirect object has to be involved in the action of the verb. – chepner Jan 29 '19 at 20:11
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    @chepner You found a case where you can't use an indirect object with "shoveled" because, as you pointed out, the indirect object isn't involved in the action. It's a huge leap from that to the claim that it's impossible to construct a situation where something is sufficiently involved in the action of shoveling and, even if you could, that would not be a grammar issue as the extent to which something is involved in the action isn't a grammatical issue. I bet with sufficient cleverness, I could some up with a sensible indirect action example for "shoveled". – David Schwartz Jan 29 '19 at 20:18
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    @chepner Look at my analogy again. Imagine if someone wrote "He slept the deep, peaceful sleep of the innocent" and you responded, "That's incorrect grammar because 'sleep' doesn't take a direct object". You'd be wrong. It doesn't normally take one, but there it does since it is being used in a context where there is a direct object. Here, the word "borrow" is being used in a context where there is an indirect object, so it has to take one. It's not a grammatical property of verbs what objects they take but a property of the action in the sentence. – David Schwartz Jan 29 '19 at 20:22
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    In "He borrowed me some money", I see "he" and some unnamed 3rd party (providing the money) as being involved in the action of borrowing. "me" represents someone who later receives the money, but is not involved in the actual borrowing. – chepner Jan 29 '19 at 20:35
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    @TonyK: To say that something is grammatical is not to "endorse" it. – TimR Jan 29 '19 at 20:59
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    @chepner Right, but none of that is a grammatical analysis. It's an analysis of who is doing what to whom to decide whether it's appropriate to use the indirect object grammatical structure to describe the action. If John shot Mary and I said "Mary shot John", the problem would not be with the grammar but that the grammatical structure I chose doesn't match what happened. It's fair to say that as you use the language, it's not appropriate to use an indirect object that way because even an indirect object requires a sufficiently direct connection to the action. – David Schwartz Jan 29 '19 at 21:37
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    @DavidSchwartz & chepner: After I scooped Ned some ice cream, I shoveled Fred some dung. And yes, this answer is exactly correct. I would argue only with stating that this usage is informal. It sounds informal 1) because it can be mistaken for the borrow/lend error 2) because it also sounds a lot like a redundant indirect object ("I'm going to have me some ice cream."), which is very informal and 3) because using the prepositional phrase ("borrowed some money for me") instead of the indirect object is completely unambiguous. But it's not wrong, and it's not unidiomatic. – Matthew W Jan 30 '19 at 01:07
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    @chepner Not all indirect objects are equal. Noun phrases are generally much less able to appear as indirect objects than pronouns are, and imperatives allow IOs more readily than tensed forms. “I shovelled the neighbour the sidewalk” is impossible, but “Shovel me that sidewalk, would you?” works (though probably perceived as dialectal). In the case of borrow, a pronominal indirect object seems perfectly usable to me, though the prepositional rephrasing has the advantage that it doesn’t run the risk of turning into a garden-path sentence. – Janus Bahs Jacquet Jan 30 '19 at 08:47
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    @Allofyouz There might not be an official list of verbs that can take indirect objects, but in day to day talk, there sure is one. If I command "shoot him me" or "shoot me, him" - nobody knows whom to shoot. If I say "shoot him for me" the clear and single meaning behind my words appear. Sure, you can construct a sentence with an indirect verb and still have a single meaning but that would be coincidental, (or be idiomatic). Grammar exists to avoid plurality of meaning and the ensuing confusion - so yeah it is not grammatical, but it works. – Stian Jan 30 '19 at 12:58
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    Don't use it that way, or people will think you flunked out of school. Whether you intend that meaning or, not, that will be the assumption. – Strawberry Jan 30 '19 at 13:51
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    @Strawberry: It will not be the assumption by speakers who are familiar with the dative construction. – TimR Jan 30 '19 at 14:07
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    @Tᴚoɯɐuo Good luck with that strategy – Strawberry Jan 30 '19 at 14:10
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    @Strawberry: OP is clearly aware that there is a way to misuse the word, and he's asking what I take to be an informed question about whether the phrase is grammatical. I'm not telling him to use the phrase but answering his question. – TimR Jan 30 '19 at 14:11
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    @ChrisH The OP did add a note of clarification saying that they are not mistakenly using borrow instead of lend. However I do think this answer could be improved by suggesting not to use this phrase in the beginning and just mentioning that it could be used grammatically as an aside. Like Mark's answer. I don't think this is even that common with native speakers. – Cave Johnson Jan 30 '19 at 17:46
  • It can be a sinister usage, particularly if loan sharking is involved. "Relax, Frankie borrowed me some money from the big boss". – mckenzm Jan 31 '19 at 01:55
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    I find it interesting, that while give and take are rarely mixed up, lend and borrow are getting mixed up on a regular basis. – Andrew Savinykh Feb 01 '19 at 00:22
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    shouldn't that be 'neither a borrower nor a lender be'? – Tom Tanner Feb 01 '19 at 08:00
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    After reading through the answers, I believe that this is the most correct. It depends on the context. I probably wouldn't say "He borrowed me some money", that sounds illiterate, preferring "he borrowed some money for me". But I also might not say "He borrowed some money for me from the bank on the corner" because it is too wordy. In this case "He borrowed me some money from the bank on the corner" is just fine. – jmarkmurphy Feb 01 '19 at 14:51
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    And no discussion of the usage is complete without the line from Willie Nelson in "Electric Horseman", "I don't know about you, but I'm gonna get me a bottle of tequila, find me one of them keno girls that can suck the chrome off a trailer hitch and just kind of kick back." – WhatRoughBeast Feb 01 '19 at 19:29
  • In German, (aus)borgen and (aus)leihen are synonymous. Legalese uses other terms. Thus, to me, this distinction seems childish and the flaming unnecessary. The pronouns take care of the semantics. That you wouldn't say "borrowed themselves", much less "loaned themselves", is a matter of phonotactics, much more than grammar. Compare e.g. *to rent (out)", which works both ways without a problem, as far as I am aware. – vectory Feb 03 '19 at 06:38
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Wiktionary says:

  1. (double transitive) To temporarily obtain (something) for (someone).

Quotations

1681 “Trial of Sir Miles Stapleton”, in State Trials, 33 Charles II, page 516: Yes, my lord, he told me this in my own house; and I told him he might go to esquire Tindal, and I lent him eighteen pence, and borrowed him a horse in the town.

1866 April 20, Charles W. G. Howard, “Minutes of Evidence Taken Before the Select Committee”, in parliamentary debates, House of Commons, page 84, columns {{{columns}}}: I went out and borrowed him a night cap; put him my night shirt on, and wrapped him in a blanket.

1999 August 1, “Ronnie Dawson, Singer, Comments on his Career and Music”, in NPR_Weekend: My folks couldn't afford a guitar, so my dad borrowed me a mandolin one time, and I was just learning to play it pretty good and the guy that he borrowed it from wanted it back.

2006, Laurie Graham, Gone with the Windsors, page 116: George Lightfoot seemed to have forgotten he was meant to be a Lost Sheep, and turned up as the Tin Man, but I forgave him, because he'd managed to borrow me a divine brass crazier from one of his bishop friends.

Still doesn't quite feel natural to me, but I'm not a native English speaker. Many people will probably have to think twice to understand who is borrowing what from whom for whom else. You're probably better off being more explicit:

He borrowed some money for me from ...

J.R.
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jcaron
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    Good use of citation/example. It's a grammatically correct construction, but an uncommon one - it sounds awkward/unnatural to me. – V2Blast Jan 30 '19 at 07:57
  • Doesn't feel natural to me either, and I am a native English speaker. This is Liverpudlian slang, even if it has spread as far as Manchester. Liverpool has a unique dialect, and if you met a man in the street who spoke with a strong Liverpool accent that would tip you off (even if you weren't in Liverpool) that he was using Scouse slang, so you'd probably be able to guess his meaning. Likewise if you met a Scotsman with a pronounced accent, the accent is enough to warn you to watch out for dialect slang that might be meaningless in another context. In the UK, context often is everything. – Ed999 Jan 31 '19 at 05:17
  • OK, but these examples taken from Wiktionary actually prove that "borrowed" is being used in place of "lent" and that some (if not many) native speakers use the verb "borrow" when they mean "lend". "I borrowed him money" *without any further context, unlike the quotations you cited in your answer, is just plain confusing* whereas "I lent him money" has none of the ambiguity. – Mari-Lou A Jan 31 '19 at 07:43
  • @Mari-LouA, I'm not sure I follow. You do agree that in all 4 quotes, it is clearly used in the sense "borrow something from someone for someone else", right? – jcaron Jan 31 '19 at 18:38
  • " I went out and borrowed him a night cap;" means I lent him a nightcap and "my dad borrowed me" means my dad lent me – Mari-Lou A Jan 31 '19 at 18:44
  • The first example could mean what you "and borrowed him a horse in the town" but it's not exactly clear. – Mari-Lou A Jan 31 '19 at 18:45
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    @Mari-LouA: No, "my dad borrowed me" clearly means "my dad borrowed [a mandolin] [from someone] for me" - read the rest of the sentence ("the guy he borrowed it from") plus consider that a mandolin is not going to be massively cheaper than the guitar that the parents couldn't afford :) – psmears Feb 01 '19 at 11:47
  • @psmears No, it still means that the father lent his son a mandolin which he [had] borrowed from a friend. The mandolin was neither his nor the son's. – Mari-Lou A Feb 01 '19 at 12:06
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    @Mari-LouA that's the whole meaning of "borrowing something from X for Y"! – jcaron Feb 01 '19 at 12:44
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    @Mari-LouA Note that I'm not saying the expression is not confusing (that's exactly what I wrote at the end of my answer). But the usage of "borrow someone something" in the sense "borrow something for someone [from someone else, who isn't stated]" does exist, and all 4 examples clearly use that sense. – jcaron Feb 01 '19 at 12:49
  • It's not standard English. – Mari-Lou A Feb 01 '19 at 13:07
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    @Mari-LouA: You're entitled to your opinion, but I don't believe it's supported by the evidence. For instance, in the first example, the speaker uses "lend" (indicating that they are aware of the correct usage of that verb), and contrasts it with "borrow"; I'm not clear why we should assume that "lend" is meant in both cases there. Note that this sort of use (" me a " for " a for me") works with any verb of obtaining ("[get/find/steal/grow/magic] me a radish"), so I'm not sure why it wouldn't work with "borrow" - other than that it reminds one of the incorrect use? – psmears Feb 01 '19 at 13:42
  • @Mari-LouA what's standard English? Standard English is not even the same in England and in Scotland, let alone in the US. It is definitely an uncommon form, and prone to confusion (and I already highlighted that in my answer, and others in comments or other answers), but it is definitely in use in at least some places, and, according to those quotes, as early as 1681 as as recently as 2006. – jcaron Feb 01 '19 at 14:18
  • In my first comment, I said clearly that some (if not many) native speakers use the verb "borrow" when they mean "lend". So, don't confuse dialects with standard English. And my answer also says the OP's sentence He borrowed me some money is confusing, so I'm glad we can at least agree on that. – Mari-Lou A Feb 01 '19 at 14:26
  • @Mari-LouA, we're getting sidetracked here, but, again, what is standard English? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_English – jcaron Feb 01 '19 at 14:29
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The shortest way (I can come up with) for saying someone who has borrowed money from another person or entity in order to lend it to a third party would be the following

  1. He borrowed money to give me

The OP's sentence is, from a purely technical viewpoint, ungrammatical. Many native speakers would criticise (an English language teacher would mark it as being incorrect) and say that the past participle of the verb lend, i.e. lent should be used instead.

  1. He lent me some money

The OP's suggestion, WITHOUT context, sounds ambiguous to me. Maybe nowadays it sounds perfectly acceptable in the US and in the UK, and speakers would not be confused, I simply don't know anymore. As I get older I see that life's little certainties diminish little by little.

  1. He borrowed me some money

Did the subject, "he", borrow money from the speaker? OR Did "he" lend money to the speaker?

Adding the parenthesis (from someone for) is wordy, confusing and plain bad style, in my humble opinion.

P.S. if the parenthesis was added for the sake of clarity it should go after the sentence, not in the middle.

Mari-Lou A
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    I added those parenthesis merely to convey the context ^^ – Zeeshan Ali Jan 29 '19 at 10:25
  • @Mari-LouA I think it's worse than that! IMHO, there is a 3rd alternative. In addition to the two meanings you've mentioned (I borrowed from B, or B borrowed from me), it might also mean "B borrowed from C on my behalf ". Whether it is grammatical is beside the point: as stated, it is incomprehensible, since it might fairly bear any of at least three possible meanings. Correction: it has at least four possible meanings: see Algy Taylor's separate answer for the 4th. – Ed999 Jan 31 '19 at 05:27
  • @Ed999 Go and tell that to the OP, Mark (whose first upvote was from me BTW) and TRomano. For me, the original sentence can be interpreted in one of two ways. – Mari-Lou A Jan 31 '19 at 07:15
  • The number of downvotes overall might have increased if SE had given users with the site association bonus (100 rep) also the "privilege" of downvoting (125 rep is required) or maybe not. The HNQ voting is crazy enough as it is. – Mari-Lou A Jan 31 '19 at 07:40
  • You did ask for an opinion from the UK! As I'm in England, I'm pointing out that (whatever the situation may be in the USA) in the UK, at least, the phrase can be understood to mean any of four different things. The sentence is at least meaningless here, therefore, even though I'm uncertain which of the (wholly artificial) rules of grammar is being violated: it is outside my (long) experience to come across a sentence with so many differing meanings! – Ed999 Jan 31 '19 at 17:28
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I think it's gramatically OK, but I'd avoid using it.

I've heard it used colloquially (Black Country, UK), but it had/has a slightly different meaning to the one I think you mean. In that "He borrowed me some money" would mean the same as "He lent me some money" or "I borrowed some money from him". Likewise "borrow me some money?" can be used to mean "Can I borrow some money?".

That use isn't widespread [from my experience], and definitely informal. I'm not sure it's used outside that area ... but it does exist, so I'd avoid using it because it could be interpreted as that (not knowing the right word, so using a similar word in place ... or intentionally using the 'wrong' word)

Algy Taylor
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He borrowed me a sizable chunk of change from his venture-capitalist buddies.

Has a clearer meaning than this terse example.

He borrowed me money

The sentence above is just plain confusing.

(Normally) We borrow something from someone

  • I borrowed Dad's car.
  • I borrowed the car from Dad.

The giver either lends something to someone or lends someone something

  • Dad lent the car to me
  • Dad lent me the car

The OP supplied the context in their parenthetical phrase, (from someone for) because they were forced to, otherwise everyone would be telling the OP the verb "borrow" is being used incorrectly. The fact that borrow meaning lend can be used regionally or in many dialectics does not remove the sentence's ambiguity UNLESS context is supplied.

Cambridge Dictionary says

Lend means ‘give something to someone for a short time, expecting that you will get it back’. The past simple and the -ed form are lent:

   I never lend my CDs to anyone.

   I lent Gary £30. (I expect that Gary will return this to me)

Borrow is a regular verb meaning ‘get something from someone, intending to give it back after a short time’:

   Could I borrow your pen for a minute, please?

   Laura used to borrow money from me all the time.

Typical error

When you give something, you lend it; when you get or receive something, you borrow it:

  Can I borrow your dictionary?

  Not: Can I lend your dictionary?

Mari-Lou A
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  • Your example explains how the money transferred from the source to the friend (he borrowed it), but does not specify how the money gets from his friend to himself. Did the friend give it to him as a gift? Did the friend lend him the money, or something else? Assuming the friend borrowed on his behalf is one thing, but there's a level of ambiguity in your example that can't be assumed because there is only one logical interpretation. Therefore, I disagree that your example is valid. –  Feb 01 '19 at 19:10
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Simplest way to clarify: He borrowed for me some money.

Tom Hundt
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If you substitute other words such as: "he found me some water", then your example appears to be correct.

A semantic point: IMHO I don't think you can borrow money for someone else. The person could borrow money, then give it to you or lend it to you, but they will always be the one receiving the original loan.

I think using a phrase like, "He borrowed some money on my behalf" makes the intention much more clear.

RrB
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  • I can certainly bake a cake for somebody else, or buy a car for somebody else. So why can't I borrow money for them? – David Richerby Jan 31 '19 at 19:47
  • @DavidRicherby: Because acting as an agent does not change who the borrower is. If X arranges a loan from Y to Z, the borrower is Z. X is not the borrower, and cannot say "I borrowed (Z money from Y)". – Ben Voigt Feb 01 '19 at 21:21
  • @BenVoigt If I bake a cake and give it to you, I have baked a cake for you. If I buy a car and give it to you, I have bought a car for you. If I borrow money and give it to you, I have _____________________. – David Richerby Feb 01 '19 at 22:03
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    @DavidRicherby: What about "I paid X's taxes"? Does it mean that I used my personal funds to benefit X, or that I, acting as corporate agent for X, used X's funds? There's an ambiguity here, these phrases do not imply "and gave it to (beneficiary)". – Ben Voigt Feb 01 '19 at 22:26
  • @BenVoigt We're talking about "borrowing money for somebody", not "borrowing somebody's money" or "paying somebody's taxes". – David Richerby Feb 01 '19 at 22:27
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    @DavidRicherby: Actually, we're talking about "borrowing somebody money". In that context it's not really possible that "somebody" is the borrower, with the speaker acting as agent, because then the speaker can't say "I borrowed". So it has to be a case where "somebody" is the beneficiary, with the speaker acting as borrower. And then as RrB answered, the role "somebody" plays depends critically on how the speaker passed the money along -- as a gift or as a loan. Even in the elaborated sentence given as an example in the top answer, I can't pin down which of the three cases is meant. – Ben Voigt Feb 01 '19 at 22:38
  • The confusion comes because money is fungible. Most other items, when borrowed, cannot be gifted away, – iamanigeeit Feb 08 '19 at 08:37
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You should avoid making that kind of statement because it can be incorrect.

Borrow technically means receiving.

Lend on the other hand means giving.

The grammatically correct way to say that would be

He lent me some money.

shin
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codejockie
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Technically, the dative

He borrowed me some money.

does mean

He lent me some money.

It's just money borrowed from someone else.

To answer the OP's question, it's grammatically right, but (probably) semantically wrong.

iamanigeeit
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    Unfortunately, it does not mean that. Reason: you have "lent to" but not "borrowed to." Therefore, "borrowed me" falls through to the backup meaning of "borrowed on my behalf," whereas "lent me" does not fall through. – thb Feb 01 '19 at 16:53
  • I think everyone who downvoted missed my point. I borrowed you a book from the library means that i borrowed the book from the library and lent it to you. – iamanigeeit Feb 08 '19 at 08:30