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Which one is correct? (Or both of them are?)

I did not understand until you had explained.
I had not understood until you explained.

Also,

We did not disturb him until he had finished his job.
We had not disturbed him until he finished his job.

Damkerng T.
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  • It all depends what you want to emphasize on. This could be useful: http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/53731/until-and-past-perfect – Maulik V Dec 06 '13 at 09:04
  • @MaulikV Thanks for the link. But if I understand that page correctly, it doesn't imply that I can say any of them depending on what I want to emphasize. – Damkerng T. Dec 06 '13 at 09:10
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    And from that page, "But as far as I've noticed, the longer you learn a foreign language, the more different grammatical structures make you hesitate..." Exactly what I'm feeling right now. – Damkerng T. Dec 06 '13 at 09:12
  • "The problem is that in very many cases even the most authoritative and precise grammar books don't provide you with absolutely clear explanations and examples of grammar usage." Same here too! – Damkerng T. Dec 06 '13 at 09:13
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    May I modestly suggest you take a look at the Canonical Post on perfects? This does not specifically address your question, but it does explain, particularly in §§3.2 and 4, that the meaning and purpose of a perfect construction are not inherent but determined by context. – StoneyB on hiatus Dec 06 '13 at 14:33
  • @StoneyB It's very kind of you. But those ELLs from intermediate level up (and I consider myself included), usually know how to use the perfect tense. Shifting the perfect tense into the future or back to the past usually doesn't cause any problems. Usually, a problem would rise when there are multiple events involved (which is why a typical advanced learners still struggle with those conditionals, especially when it goes beyond I, II, III in basic grammar books). As for myself, I believe that I could pick the right answer most of the time when being tested. However, ... – Damkerng T. Dec 06 '13 at 14:59
  • most of the time doesn't mean "all the time", which is what I aimed at. Thus, it needs some crystal clear explanation, which I'm in the process of tuning the sense to be as close as native speakers as possible... In the examples, I instinctively aware that the first cases are likely to be the first choices to native speakers, which is exactly opposite to my first language. And, the past and past perfect in the same sentence usually get into such a conflict like this one, when it's clear that one event was done before another event starts... – Damkerng T. Dec 06 '13 at 15:00
  • However, at least to me, the acts of "explain" and "understand" are allowed to be thought of in a way that is uncertain which event comes before which, because both cases are allowed in my first language. With such a discrepancy between the two languages inside one's mind, it's very difficult to answer such a question exactly right every time. (Please look at the problem from ELLs' point of view, I beg you.) Back to the examples, to me, all are possible, and actually I copied the first two sentences from EL&U, which someone recommended the OP to post the question here... – Damkerng T. Dec 06 '13 at 15:07
  • without telling that they're from a grammar book, and (according to the OP) they're both right. That perplexed me a little, for I was (and still am) uncertain how exactly (in which scenario) that a native speaker could allow such sentences. That's the reason why I posted it here. (My apologies if these comments are a bit too long.) – Damkerng T. Dec 06 '13 at 15:10
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    All of the sentences you present are grammatically acceptable, but perfect constructions derive their meaning from the context in which they are used. Without further context there is no evident reason why a perfect should be employed at all, rather than saying simply "I did not understand until you explained" or "We did not disturb him until he finished". – StoneyB on hiatus Dec 06 '13 at 17:54

1 Answers1

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Well, to be perfectly honest, they're all grammatical in that there are no syntactic or semantic issues involved.

With that said, when you're using until it's usually the preceding clause that uses the perfect construction, particularly because until is being used synonymously with before. So to me, I prefer the second sentence in each example.

For example:

I didn't understand until before you explained.

I hadn't understood until you explained.

We didn't disturb him until before he finished his job.

We hadn't disturbed him until he finished his job.

The past perfect typically indicates that the action occurred before another action, so it's used for whichever action occurred first, With these, it would depend on your perspective; but from a first person perspective, the second is correct.

Giambattista
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  • The fact that you said "it's the second sentence in each example that is properly constructed" bothers me a little. Because that's exactly my first choice, and I just read from a grammar book (before I posted this question) that, in their words, "present perfect and past perfect can emphasis the idea of completion", with a few examples including "I waited until the rain had stopped", which I think can map exactly to my example sentences. So I expected the answer might be like native speakers would choose the first sentences as their first choice, and then... – Damkerng T. Dec 07 '13 at 04:56
  • ... discuss if the second sentences (which are my first choices) are possible. Is there something special with the use of "until" and past perfect? – Damkerng T. Dec 07 '13 at 04:57
  • @DamkerngT. Usually, the past perfect is sequential in nature. You use it to signal that an event occurred before another event. In that example, I wouldn't use the past perfect for rain, I'd use it for myself because I am the subject. But, this, to me, is an incomplete thought, and that had stopped suggests to me that it's followed by a before. I think the example in the book is something like I waited until the rain had stopped before* I walked to the park.* And if I had written it, it'd be more like *I'd* waited until the rain had stopped before I walked to the park*. – Giambattista Dec 07 '13 at 16:54
  • I shouldn't use so many contractions when explaining grammar, but that sentence would be too cumbersome with I had rather than I'd. This site has a good explanation. And here is another. – Giambattista Dec 07 '13 at 16:56
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    There is absolutely no need to use past perfect in these constructions. (You can if you want to, but it's more cumbersome, so I wouldn't unless I had a reason to.) *We did not disturb him until (before) he finished his job* is perfectly grammatical. – Peter Shor Dec 07 '13 at 16:59
  • @PeterShor That wasn't the question. I don't know that I'd use it *informally* either, but it's not wrong. And while I wouldn't go so far as to call your example ungrammatical, it's not proper grammar. – Giambattista Dec 07 '13 at 17:02
  • Before I read grammar books last week, I felt quite confident that my choosing second sentences is perfectly fine. Then, I read some posts in some websites and started doubting myself. The post in EL&U was like the last straw that broke my confidence (on using past perfect with "until", not past perfect in general), so I posted this question. I'm now feeling like I got my confidence restored. Thanks a lot! – Damkerng T. Dec 07 '13 at 17:04
  • But why a down vote? – Damkerng T. Dec 07 '13 at 17:05
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    @DamkerngT. in the sentences above, which I've just updated to make them less cumbersome, until means before. I only changed it to before to make it more clear to you contextually, – Giambattista Dec 07 '13 at 17:09
  • Does the down votes mean there is something incorrect in JohnQPublic's answer? – Damkerng T. Dec 07 '13 at 17:32
  • @DamkerngT. I'm not sure because of the lack of comments, but I do believe that I'd improperly used the past perfect in each the first sentences in the examples; I fixed them. I hadn't changed them when I copied and pasted them. I'd wanted to highlight that before means until, but I still should have changed them. Note that every use of the past perfect in this comment itself is correct, even if not required. The past perfect is often optional and infrequently used. – Giambattista Dec 07 '13 at 17:38