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The Catholic Church seems to be adding things to the Gospels which were never written down by the Apostles. For example, where in the Gospels is it mentioned that the Pope is the representative of God in the human world? Or that it is alright to kill non-believers of Jesus Christ? Or that it is okay to wage war in the name of God? I don't think Jesus ever said those things.

agarza
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Volpina
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    What evidence do you have that the Catholic Church is teaching that Jesus taught any of those things? All Christians have more books in their Bibles than just the Gospels you know. – curiousdannii Jun 30 '23 at 04:09
  • I dont know but did Jesus teach to burn people in Holy Fire when they dont agree with you ? – Volpina Jun 30 '23 at 04:13
  • Or why did the Crusades happen?Pope just declared one day to free Jerusalem from the unfaithful (Muslims). – Volpina Jun 30 '23 at 04:19
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    No one is disputing that the crusades happened, but you didn't ask about why they happened. You asked about the Catholic Church altering the Gospels. Simply teaching something doesn't mean they altered the Gospels to say it. – curiousdannii Jun 30 '23 at 04:49
  • @curiousdannii you are playing with words.And guess who declared the Crusades?That's right. The Pope." Simply teaching something doesn't mean they altered the Gospels to say it.".But any Christian Church is supposed to teach the teaching of Jesus so therefore anything Jesus didnt say and was added to them is altering. – Volpina Jun 30 '23 at 04:50
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    No, Christians have other books in the Bible too. Not everything Jesus taught the Apostles was recorded in the Gospels, lots of it was recorded in the letters the Apostles wrote instead. Your tone is starting to make it seem like you're not here to actually learn, but instead to try to prove a point. Is that the case? If not please [edit] your question to add more context to it so that it can be answered fairly. – curiousdannii Jun 30 '23 at 04:56
  • Not agreeing with you by providing my own arguments isnt "trying to prove a point". – Volpina Jun 30 '23 at 05:04
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    I think it might help if you deal with one issue at a time, in separate questions. And link to statements which you do not agree with so that you can ask about what is actually stated in said link. – Nigel J Jun 30 '23 at 08:40
  • https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/2358/what-is-the-argument-for-papal-succession, https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/34668/when-and-why-did-the-catholic-church-stop-the-crusades, https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/19863/why-was-heliocentrism-such-a-threat-to-roman-catholic-leaders-that-their-propone/19864#19864 – depperm Jun 30 '23 at 10:17
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    The question is in present tense "why is", not past tense "why did", meaning that they are still currently altering the Gospels and teachings of Jesus. Can you add an example of when they recently changed the Gospels, and an example of when they recently changed the teachings of Jesus? – Ray Butterworth Jun 30 '23 at 12:55
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    Welcome to Christianity Stack Exchange. This forum is different to many others - it's about asking questions that show evidence of your own research efforts, by backing up claims with sources. Please take our Tour to understand what we look for: https://christianity.stackexchange.com/tour – Lesley Jul 02 '23 at 10:34
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    @Volpina " so therefore anything Jesus didn't say and was added to them is altering. " so says you. Namely, it is your unsupported claim that the Gospels and the Gospels alone contain the teachings of Christ. The problem is a) what to do with the rest of the New Testament (are the letters of Paul to be rejected?) and b) why doesn't everyone who takes a similar premise about the Gospels in agreement on everything else? – eques Jul 02 '23 at 22:58

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First, I must say I am used to these questions not being questions but just statements with a question mark in the end. I don’t mind, and I really don’t care, if someone does not believe what I believe, I have absolutely no inclination to convert or even to argue with someone over these matters. So, a bit naive I will answer the question as a question.

Your question shows you have a few things not clear, that must be cleared before an answer is possible:

  1. Do the Gospels contain everything Jesus ever said? There is no evidence they do, and it is extremely improbable they do.

  2. Do the Gospels contain everything Jesus had to say? No they don’t. Read John 16:12, and you will notice Jesus said so himself.

Therefor you cannot, on logical grounds, say that Jesus teachings are limited to the Gospels. You can within these logical limits decide that you only believe the part you can find in the Gospel, because you have no other source you believe. But that is your, human, decision, to not believe Jesus teachings that came to you in another way.

  1. Does Jesus teach that the four Gospels you think are the Gospels, the only Gospels, and the complete and accurate Gospels, are indeed what you believe them to be? Well, maybe, but not in those same Gospels.

Therefor, on logical grounds, you have no way of knowing the Gospels are the source to the teachings of Jesus, if you only wish to believe the Gospels.

It may be interesting to know that the decision which books are part of the Bible, and indeed which are the Gospels, was made by the church. The Roman Catholic Church, catholics would argue. The undivided church we now know as the catholic and orthodox churches, non Roman catholics, orthodox, calvinists, lutherans and anglicans would argue.

Even those protestants that teach (like the Dutch calvinists) that we can know which books form the Bible based on faith (the reasoning is a bit more complex, but it boils down to this) in fact accept that faith is not based on the Bible, but our understanding of what exactly is the Bible is based on faith first.

  1. Do christians (of most denominations) teach that the Bible fell out of heaven, or was dictated by God, or an angel like Gabriel, to a prophet or apostle? No. You would be referring to Islam if you believe that.

  2. Then what do Catholics teach about the sources of their faith, the teachings of Jesus Christ? Well, we, as (Roman) Catholics, believe that we have three sources, all based on or substantiated by Holy Scripture:

First: Holy Scripture. That is a bit more than the Gospels, but the Gospels are a very central part of it. Here we can read what Jesus did and said, and we can read about the way God related to the world, and how He related to the people of Israel (Old Testament) and how He related to the young church (New Testament after the Gospels)

Second: Traditio (I don’t know the correct English word, in Dutch we use a word that translates as “lore”, but I don’t think that has the right meaning), which is the teachings to the apostles, carried through the ages by the apostolic succession. So this is what Jesus said and taught, but the evangelists didn’t right down in the Gospels. As I explained, we can know for certain that Jesus did say more than we can read in the Gospels. As catholics we believe this “more” is kept by the church to pass on.

Third: the living Magisterium. This is the authority of the Church, being led by the Holy Spirit. (Read John 16 again, if you wonder how we can possibly believe that).

So, the Roman Catholic Church is 100% based on the teachings of Jesus Christ and of the Holy Spirit, nothing more, nothing less. We accept Holy Scripture, based on our faith in the Holy Spirit in deciding what books and texts are in fact “Holy Scripture”, we accept that the teachings the apostles received is passed on by apostolic succession, and we accept that the Holy Spirit today guides the Church.

  1. Can catholics proof any of this? No. Not at all. We accept that everything we believe in the end is nothing more, really nothing more, than a gift from God. But we also value clear thinking, yes even philosophy, and we understand that the Bible in itself does not contain anything that proofs it is “true”, or “complete”, or even “over complete”.

So we respect our brothers and sisters in Christ who have worked out the Sola Scriptura doctrine because they couldn’t believe as we do anymore and needed at least some solid ground. But we also noticed that some teachings about the Bible, and the Gospel, really lost it and made human interpretation a bit too important. As soon as you do not accept anymore that the Bible does not prove itself and you do not understand that accepting the Bible in itself is an act of faith, faith given to you by God, it becomes very hard to communicate on these matters.

So, the answer to your question: The Church never added anything to the teachings of Jesus, but yes, the Church compiled the Bible. Anything you accept as “the Gospel” was decided by what I call “the Roman Catholic Church” to be the Gospel.

The other questions, your examples, are either not teachings of the Roman catholic Church or are based on the sources I explained to you.

ABM K
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  • So where does any religious text related to Christianity say to torment and kill (by burning someone alive) if you disagree with him? – Volpina Jun 30 '23 at 12:43
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    If you just want to make a statement, or you refuse to read the answer, I do not feel much need to answer – ABM K Jun 30 '23 at 13:33
  • I have read the answer .There are historical recordings of people burnt alive by the Catholic Church because they were considered to be heretics where does any religious text related to Christianity say we have to torment and kill someone if you consider them heretics?Jesus literaly said "I am letting everyone decide if he/she will follow me or not so I can teach him/here what is right and wrong ". – Volpina Jun 30 '23 at 14:18
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    So you did not read the answer. No problem. And no reason to answer your follow up questions. You only try to argue. I am not interested. – ABM K Jun 30 '23 at 14:55
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    @Volpina asks "where does any religious text related to Christianity say we have to torment and kill someone if you consider them heretics?". Where in your question is there any evidence of someone claiming that some religious text said such things? As it is currently written, the question is asking about something without giving any evidence that it even exists? Without specific examples to respond to, no one can reasonably answer this question as it is currently worded. – Ray Butterworth Jul 01 '23 at 22:55
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    @ABMK The word you're looking for in this answer is indeed Tradition. – Andrew Leach Jul 02 '23 at 09:59
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    @Volpina have you ever heard of the term "strawman" or "loaded question"? That's exactly what you are doing. You are making claims that aren't actually based in reality, more specifically, you are skipping over nuance and then expecting your interlocutor to defend the position that you accuse them of holding. – eques Jul 02 '23 at 18:10
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    @Volpina 'Jesus literaly said "I am letting everyone decide if he/she will follow me or not so I can teach him/here what is right and wrong "' Where did He literally say that? – eques Jul 02 '23 at 18:11
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First, there is an important difference between "the Gospels", and "the Gospel". The first refers to the first four books of the New Testament, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. But "the Gospel" is the message of salvation in Christ - what he did to save repentant sinners - his finished work on the cross. It incorporates everything about Jesus Christ, who he is as well as what he said and did. We find everything about the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the Bible (and nowhere else).

There are severe warnings in the New Testament about tampering with the Gospel. False Christs and false apostles will come (as Jesus said in Matthew ch. 24). To add to the Gospel, or to take away from it, is to alter the Gospel. Here is a warning about that, written by the apostle Paul to first century Christians:

"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel, which is not another, but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." Galatians 1:6-9 A.V.

Paul then goes on to state what the true Gospel message is. It is contained in the Bible, so anyone wanting to know the Gospel of Christ must learn from the Bible. It therefore follows that any religious group claiming to be Christian, but which tries to keep the Bible from the people, is effectively trying to keep the Gospel of Christ from the people. Or, equally, if they promote their own "explanatory" literature, or their own "Church" and its ministers as the only source to go to to learn the Gospel, they are denigrating the Bible which is the very word of God. It is inspired of the Holy Spirit who guides believers into all truth. This leads to a point you ask about, but I only deal with historic evidence - what was said and done in the past. I do not deal with present matters. The subject you raise is so vast, of necessity it must be contained.

But this might not be what you are looking for. The history of the Reformation shows many reasons believers in Christ found for considering the gospel of their day to have been altered. A study of John Calvin's "Institutes" show why. In book IV.4 he examines the history of the early church before the rise of the papacy, and IV.5-13 for how the Roman Catholic Church could no longer be a true church. The Reformers believed that the marks of the true Church were missing in the Catholicism of their day, necessitating the action they took. Calvin wrote about being constrained to "withdraw from them that we might come to Christ" in IV.2.6.

However, if you are not seeking information to clarify your question, but just wanting to make an attack on a particular group, your question will be removed for not conforming to the purpose of the Stack Christianity site. Do click on the 'Tour' link at the bottom l.h.s. of this page to learn more.

Anne
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