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According to Young Earth Creationists, other beliefs (particularly in Evolutionism) harm Christianity in various ways such as:

  • Making Death something other than the direct consequence of Sin
  • Distorting the redemptive role of Death¹
  • Denying the special value of man as distinct from all other creatures
  • Reducing God's power

I don't want to belabor the point, as I'm merely trying to show the existence of claims that a denial of YEC is detrimental to Christian theology.

I also don't want to get into debates of whether belief in, or rejection of, YEC is beneficial or harmful to one's ability to remain in the faith. For this question, I am placing that explicitly out of bounds. (Likewise for arguments dealing with science, whether or not a belief is scientifically supported or affects one's view of science.)

Rather, given the above YEC arguments, it would seem that a case can be made that any attack on YEC is an attack on Christianity itself, and that all such attacks are thus ultimately opposed to Christianity. Indeed, such arguments have been made by various YECs.

Now... if such arguments can be sustained, they would be a powerful argument in favor of YEC. Therefore, I would like to explore the opposite side.

According to non-YECs, what are the theological detriments to belief in YEC?


(¹ Death is the wages/consequence of Sin. Adam sinned ⇒ God killed an animal. God's people sinned ⇒ they sacrificed animals. Humans sinned ⇒ God sacrificed His Son. YECs argue that death before sin distorts this relation and reduces the atoning "value" of death. This answer on another question may be helpful.)

Machavity
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Matthew
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    How a belief would affect your ability to remain in the faith, and how it relates to science, are of crucial importance when discussing the detriments of a belief. The main objection to YEC is that it's at odds with our knowledge of reality based on observations made through science, not that it's flawed on a "theological basis". Calling it an "attack on Christianity itself" to object to beliefs that don't align with how you understand scripture or reality seems a bit extreme and detrimental to actually coming to any sort of agreement about the "correct" understanding of scripture and reality. – NotThatGuy Apr 08 '22 at 15:39
  • @NotThatGuy, YEC isn't at odds with reality. It's at odds with specific claims (of Materialist origin) made about reality. Those arguments, however, are obvious. My point is that I am seeking to learn if there are other arguments; ones which would still apply if one does not see a contradiction between scientific knowledge and YEC, which is the case for many YECs. (If you want to discuss further whether YEC is "at odds with reality", please take it to chat.) – Matthew Apr 08 '22 at 15:57
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    I'm undecided on YEC but will toss this out there: the big lie of the "enlightenment" is that faith and reason are incompatible, so we must discard faith. Some Christians have bought into the lie, and decided that we must discard reason instead. The premise is false -- faith and reason are compatible. I think the risk that we ought to be worried about is falling into this trap where we become the parody of ourselves that atheists imagine us to be. – workerjoe Apr 12 '22 at 14:10
  • @workerjoe, that is a gross mischaracterization of YEC. What YEC (and ID!) says we must discard is a Materialist-dogmatic "reason" that perverts science. Materialism and Christianity are incompatible, but Materialism is not reason. It is quite far from it, in fact. (If you want to discuss this more, however, please take it to chat.) – Matthew Apr 12 '22 at 15:47

8 Answers8

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YEC is theologically harmful if people reject Christ just because they don't believe certain tenets of YEC such as the six 24-hour day of creation and the historicity of Adam.

A corollary is when people reject Christ because fundamentalist Biblical inerrantist pastors / leaders convinced them that Christian faith requires reading all of the Bible as historical facts, in addition to putting our faith in Christ. A famous story back in May 2020 can serve as an example: Jon Steingard, an evangelist-pastor kid, abandoned the faith he was raised with and announced it in a series of Instagram posts. A few weeks later, he was interviewed in the Unbelievable? program with Sean McDowell (son of apologist Josh McDowell) as another guest.

A part of his decision seems to have something to do with his relying too much on the Bible being inerrant so that he always has a reliable answer for every question in life, although after watching the video it seems more to do with the hiddenness of God and with his inability to understand why the Father in Heaven would abandon helpless kids to die before they reach 5 in impoverished and dangerous places (which is so hard for him who is a father to young kids himself).

Some quotes from the Instagram post:

I was raised to believe that the Bible was the perfect Word of God. Sure, it was written by human beings, but those people were divinely inspired - and we can consider the words they wrote to be the Word of God.

I began to have questions and doubts about that. It seemed like there were a lot of contradictions in the Bible that didn't make sense. ... Suffice it to say that when I began to believe that the Bible was simply a book written by people as flawed and imperfect as I am - that was when my belief in God truly began to unravel.

...

Once I found that I didn't believe the Bible was the perfect Word of God - it didn't take long to realize that I was no longer sure he was there at all. That thought terrified me. It sent me into a tailspin. The implications of that idea were absolutely massive.

From the video (min 39:02-39:49):

"... I just came away with this feeling [that] everyone is just deciding for themselves what they want to believe. And there is no way to know for sure. That was the conclusion I reached. ... A real key point for me was the inerrancy of the Bible. ... If the Bible is not the perfect Word of God like I was taught, then to your point Sean about the anchor, what is the anchor? ..."

Sean responded with 2 points:

  1. Knowledge doesn't require certainty, Christians live with doubt and are given mercy citing Jude 1:22, doubt is not the opposite of faith/belief/knowledge, what's important is what makes the most sense even when we have some doubts/questions. (min. 40:07-41:10)
  2. He also believes that the Bible is "the inerrant perfect word of God", but more important to him is what is the heart central issue? He said that to Christianity it is not inerrancy. Even if we had an errant / flawed Bible (which Sean does not believe) but still show that Jesus claimed to be God, died, buried, and rose in the 3rd day, Christianity is still true. (min 41:10-42:37)

Does Paul's Christ Require a Historical Adam?

J.R. Daniel Kirk, a Fuller's NT professor, wrote a 2013 journal article "Thinking Science and Christian Faith Together" which is posted in the Fuller Seminary's blog as Does Paul's Christ Require a Historical Adam?

His main point is that for people who are convinced that the human origin story is best told from a non-YEC perspective, they don't have to abandon the Christian faith. He believes that

The task of reimagining a Christian story of origins for our modern era has already begun. 9

9 After Adam: Reading Genesis in an Age of Evolutionary Science by Daniel C. Harlow, an article in the September 2010 issue of Perspectives on Science and Christian Faith.

From His concluding paragraph:

To accompany Paul on the task of telling the story of the beginning in light of Christ, while parting ways with his first-century understanding of science and history, is not to abandon the Christian faith in favor of science. ...

Christ, the Law, and History

He assess the following question:

To what extent do we need to affirm a historical Adam in order also to affirm the saving dynamics of Paul’s Adam Christology?

and interpret Rom 5:12-21 to represent Paul's attempt 1) to take all other options other than Christ "off the table" and 2) to establish that God's people are not demarcated by Torah (i.e. Gentiles and Jews have the same problem and need Christ as the solution). He concluded this section (emphasis mine):

Paul’s Adam theology is an avenue toward affirming that God has one worldwide people; therefore, the specially blessed people are not defined by the story of circumcision. But he does not ask the question of whether an evolutionary account of human origins might stand within the story of God’s new creation work in Christ, and his argument is not aimed at denying such an explanation of where we came from.

Retelling the Story of Origins

In the second section of the article he reminded us of the perspective used by ancient writers when telling stories of human origins (such as Genesis 1), that

it was never simply to tell people “what happened.” Instead, such narratives indicate why their particular people and their particular god played the roles of sovereigns of the world.

Similarly, (emphasis mine)

Paul employs the story of Adam based on his new understanding that Christ is the man through whom God has chosen to rule the world and that the churches are the people who are the fulfillment of the promise of numerous descendants. For neither Paul nor the writer of Genesis does the story of Adam exist as a standalone narrative to which later history must correspond. Instead, the convictions about what God has done at a later point in history determine how the Adam story is read.

...

... what is a “given” for Paul is the saving event of Jesus’ death and resurrection. The other things he says, especially about sin, the Law, and eschatology, are reinterpretations that grow from the fundamental reality of the Christ event. ... The gospel need not be compromised if we find ourselves having to part ways with Paul’s assumption that there is a historical Adam, because we share Paul’s fundamental conviction that the crucified messiah is the resurrected Lord over all.

... For many, the cognitive dissonance between the sciences and a historical Adam has already become too great to continue holding both.8 We therefore have to carefully determine whether the cause of Christ, and of truth, is better served by indicating that a choice must be made between the two, or by retelling the narrative about the origins of humanity as we now understand it in light of the death and resurrection of Christ.

8 Recent Genetic Science and Christian Theology on Human Origins: An "Aesthetic Supralapsarianism" by John R. Schneider, an article in the September 2010 issue of Perspectives on Science and Christian Faith.

CONCLUSION

YEC in itself is not harmful at all. Millions of Christians have been nourished in their faith assisted by YEC-formulated theology, especially before 1800. The harm lies when a YEC church, coupled with a particular version of the inerrancy doctrine, teaches their followers in such a way (through sermons, Sunday school programs, reading list, apologetics) that resulted in

  1. their misplacing the central issue of what needs to be believed away from Christ alone, by requiring them to package Christ together with reading the Bible in a certain way (such as reading Gen 1-3 as history) as though they rise and fall together
  2. "protecting" them from asking the truly hard questions (problem of evil, etc.) by giving substandard apologetics based on an increasingly-hard-to-defend version of inerrancy (which is stricter than Chicago Statement), refusing to be aware that the inerrancy doctrine itself is not as clear cut as the doctrine of the Trinity. For example, see the 2020 article Inerrancy and Evangelicals: The Challenge for a New Generation.

Thus, the harm lies when YEC Christians (or would-be Christians evangelized by YEC) have doubt about Christianity. This is the time when they need to dig deep into the resources that help Christianity "makes sense" to them so they don't have unnecessary cognitive dissonance that interferes with their personal relationship with Christ. Humans are metaphysically wired to love the truth, making cognitive dissonance unbearable.

Unlike Trinity, doctrines / teachings that are still open (such as eschatology, historical Adam, atonement, nature of baptism, original sin, inerrancy) should be presented in such a way so that when a Christian has doubt he/she can switch to another theory of human origins / atonement / etc. to resolve the doubt. I myself, for example, prefer St. Irenaeus's understanding of Adam and the associated atonement theory which in doing so alleviates my personal concerns of God's justice and love, but I do not exclude the legitimacy of other Christians who prefer other theories as long as we all subscribe to the early creeds (like the Apostle's creed).

Therefore, if a YEC-promoted way of reading the Bible prevents a Christian from choosing a legitimate option of particular doctrines or from reconciling with other sources of truth (such as evolution) which could have contributed to the resolution of that doubt, then that unnecessary narrowing of theologically legitimate options is where YEC is theologically harmful.

Glorfindel
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GratefulDisciple
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  • This is much more detailed than my mostly Tongue in cheek response. Well done. – Luke Hill Apr 07 '22 at 22:24
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    This is an excellent answer. However I have to say that these problems, though real, are true only if people insist that belief in YEC is necessary to be a Christian. If someone believes in YEC, but is happy to accept that other Christians do not, then there are no significant theological problems. (Sorry I deleted my previous comment intending to replace it with this one, which explains why the reply is above this.) – DJClayworth Apr 08 '22 at 13:55
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    @DJClayworth Transferred my comments to the answer. BTW, I like your answer, it's a shorter version of mine. – GratefulDisciple Apr 08 '22 at 16:13
  • could you please provide a link for a simple explanation about what "St. Irenaeus's understanding of Adam" actually is? Or maybe you could formulate the core of it in a few words? I've searched about St. Irenaeus but many sources are about different complex topics. – vsz Apr 09 '22 at 19:51
  • @vsz See parts 3 and 4 of Joel's blog articles on Original Sin linked here). His atonement theory (called recapitulation) interprets Adam as "incomplete" and Christ as Second Adam as completing humanity. This is in contrast with the much more common Penal Substitution popular among evangelicals which can be misunderstood to imply a vengeful or an unjust God who punishes an innocent. For Christians offended by that that, they have the option to choose another atonement theory while still believing that Christ is needed to save us. – GratefulDisciple Apr 09 '22 at 21:22
  • @vsz I must add that St. Irenaeus didn't believe in non-historical Adam, neither did St. Paul, but both probably didn't subscribe to St. Augustine's later formulation of Original Sin, which more strongly depends on historical Adam. Thus, Christians persuaded to theological evolution have the option to reformulate the story of human origins, if in the coming decades it becomes critical to preserve the unity of truth, the way Copernican revolution required an adjustment of Christian cosmology. More on St. Irenaeus in this 1946 article. – GratefulDisciple Apr 09 '22 at 21:29
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    Detailed, but interesting response. Are there really no theological reasons why YEC is wrong? In isolation, it only bolsters faith? The complaint that YEC looks bad and might make young believers rebel is a social problem, not theological. Whereas the YEC insistence is that the faith is meaningless without YEC theology. –  Apr 10 '22 at 02:55
  • @fredsbend Are there really no theological reasons why YEC is wrong? In isolation, it only bolsters faith? Isn't all theologies prior to 1800 YEC? I'm merely highlighting that YEC is self-consistent before 1800. But as theologies need to evolve to respond to challenges from modern philosophy and science, an ossified theology is increasingly more brittle and finally collapses because the adherents cannot afford to have a cognitive dissonance. Ironically, the Catholic church previously charged to be too sectarian is now embracing science & other religions more gracefully than fundamentalists! – GratefulDisciple Apr 10 '22 at 03:33
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    @GratefulDisciple On the contrary, fleshed-out and robust YEC theology is in response to modern scientific discovery. It's more or less a given or ignored in most ancient writing, and there are notable ancient non-YECs. OEC is not new. –  Apr 10 '22 at 03:45
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    @GratefulDisciple Creationism does not depend on a fundamentalist/literalist reading of scripture, and most YECs are not literalists. (Neither does the Chicago Statement of inerrancy have anything to do with literalism!) Visiting creation.com or answersingenesis.org will show lots of articles about genres in scripture. The specific contentious claim though is that the first chapters of genesis were intended to be read historically, but just because someone thinks that doesn't mean they are in any way a literalist. – curiousdannii Apr 10 '22 at 11:31
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    @curiousdannii I deleted my inaccurate comment. With your input I'm open to revising this answer if there are inaccuracies. I have been careful to phrase it as "particular version of inerrancy" and "reading the Bible in a certain way" which YEC church package together with faith in Christ as though both rise and fall together. I also focus on whether belief in historical Adam is essential. In that way I hope to avoid science question but focus on how YEC way of presenting and defending faith is likely to lead to cognitive dissonance that is counterproductive and lead to unnecessary apostasy. – GratefulDisciple Apr 10 '22 at 15:41
  • @fгedsbend Let's continue discussion in the Upper Room. – GratefulDisciple Apr 10 '22 at 15:45
  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. – Ken Graham Apr 10 '22 at 17:54
  • +1 What a wonderful answer. "Unlike Trinity, doctrines / teachings that are still open" How do you decide which ones are still open? – Only True God Apr 14 '22 at 21:56
  • For example, you cite the Apostles' Creed, but a unitarian Christian could be (any many are) completely happy with the Apostles' Creed. But even so, why does that decide which teachings are still open? – Only True God Apr 14 '22 at 21:57
  • @OneGodtheFather reply in chat – GratefulDisciple Apr 14 '22 at 22:20
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There are no theological problems with someone being a believer in Young Earth Creation.

If someone chooses to believe that the Genesis account is literal, then they are not sinning. Many people believed the Genesis account was literal, and there is no indication it affected their walk with Jesus. I know many people who do so today, and live virtuous lives. It is inconceivable that Jesus would look at someone who believed and trusted in him, obeyed his commands and loved God and his neighbour, but would reject that person because they had a wrong opinion about the age of the universe.

The problems all arise with YEC Christians who insist that all other Christians must believe in YEC like they do.

It is this that turns people off Christianity, and causes people to believe that Christians are delusional, and that it is necessary to reject reality in order believe in Jesus. It is this that causes people to walk away from Jesus when they discover that the simple theology they were taught is contradicted by overwhelming evidence.

Another possible downside is that some Christians insist on arguing about the age of the Earth. Non-Christians see this question as something that has very little relevance to their lives, and Christians' focus on it also puts them off the faith.

GratefulDisciple gives a good and coherent account of the damage that such insistance can do, and Ray Butterworth makes good and valid points. I won't repeat them in this answer.

DJClayworth
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    I know this is the traditional answer from non-YECs, and I'm not going to down-vote it, but throwing out one's theology over bad apologetics doesn't seem like the answer. That's a classic case of "throwing out the baby with the bath water". In any case, this view doesn't seem to consider whether taking such a liberal interpretation of the Bible is also damaging. – Matthew Apr 08 '22 at 14:46
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    @Matthew What do you mean by "bad apologetics"? If you mean "insisting that YEC is the only valid theology" then I agree with you, and that's what I say above. If you mean something else then what is it? – DJClayworth Apr 08 '22 at 15:08
  • You mentioned "people [that] walk away from Jesus when they discover that the simple theology they were taught is contradicted by overwhelming evidence". But YEC theology is not "contradicted by overwhelming evidence"; quite the opposite in fact! Like Jon in GratefulDisciple's answer, however, too many are not given the tools to stand against worldly attacks on their faith (whether YEC, the problem of pain, or something else). That's apologetics, or in this case, the failure thereof. The problem isn't the teaching, it's teaching badly; failing to provide a foundation, if you will. – Matthew Apr 08 '22 at 15:20
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    I understand that you are personally committed to the truth of YEC, and that you fundamentally believe that there is evidence for it that people are ignoring. But please don't try to argue that in comments here. The question is about the effects of YEC belief, not its truth. – DJClayworth Apr 08 '22 at 15:24
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    Sorry, but there's a difference between a belief being harmful in and of itself, and being harmful when it's badly taught. That said, I'd also rather not turn this into an argument; I just wanted to note my objection to your (deliberate?) blurring of that distinction. – Matthew Apr 08 '22 at 15:35
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    Did you read the part of my answer where I say that belief in YEC is not harmful in and of itself? – DJClayworth Apr 08 '22 at 15:39
  • "There are no theological problems with someone being a believer in Young Earth Creation". But in Christianity lying is a sin. Doesn't this mean that spreading YEC ideology if also sinful since it is an obvious lie? – user000001 Apr 09 '22 at 06:06
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    @user000001 That would only be a sin if the person saying it believed it was a lie. – DJClayworth Apr 09 '22 at 12:33
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    @Matthew - the other side of the problem is people who aren't Christian, could become devoted to Christ, but factually in practice it will happen that they won't, because YEC is asking too much to accept. Which is a tragedy as its not even necessary to believe in YEC to be a Christian. (And yes, indeed, you can teach people to believe most things. Unfortunately cults and extremist groups excel at that, too. So pleading that something could be absorbed "if taught "correctly" ", for some definition of correctly, isn't actually saying much, really.) – Stilez Apr 10 '22 at 06:20
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    @Stilez : and those whose first experience at what they thought was "Christianity" was through membership in an extremist cult (either because they felt a "spiritual calling" and that cult was the first one which managed to get to them, or because they were born into it), are very likely to end up as hardcore atheists after they managed to get free from that cult. I've seen far too many examples of young people who rejected Christianity, because they used to live in a setting where the fundamentals of being a Christian was to not be allowed to celebrate birthdays, etc. – vsz Apr 10 '22 at 11:11
  • Yes. The less you add that's not necessary to believe, the less risk you'll push people away. Think of safety signs like speed limits and "danger, deep hole". They don't waste words, they tell you the key things needed to be safe nothing more. Same here. Every last thing you add to Christ's message of salvation, that is not absolutely essential to it, is potential scope for harm. One more thing to rub the wrong way or remind them of a bad other experience. The more important the message, the less you should encumber it with anything not so critical, however precious it may be to you. – Stilez Apr 10 '22 at 12:10
  • @Stilez, there's an interesting, totally secular reply to be made to YEC being a stumbling block, in that there are a lot of not-necessarily-Christian scientists who are Not Amused by the folks that have made "science" synonymous with "Methodological Naturalism / Methodological Materialism". As in, that's harmful to (actual) science, not just to Christianity. – Matthew Apr 10 '22 at 20:59
  • "A lot". It looks like "a lot" from inside, because that's what one wants to hear about. But honestly, from outside, (A) its a small minority mostly classed as fringe, some classed charitably as whacko, (B) most of whom if actual credible scientists, their objection to how science works doesn't mean they support YEC and would probably rip a hole in that too as less likely, and (C) people just aren't going to look for those few. They're outside the echo chamber, and they'll pay more heed to the many, many voices and resources there which aren't those few, and don't support those few. Sorry, etc – Stilez Apr 10 '22 at 22:56
  • OK, folks, you can take this to chat now. – DJClayworth Apr 10 '22 at 23:06
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Although the pastoral concern would be paramount for me, since you want a theological problem with YEC, I would offer the following.

We are commanded throughout the Scriptures to seek after wisdom. That command actually has moral/theological force; it's not simply a case of “some kids are smart, and good for them.” Everyone is supposed to seek after wisdom, which of course includes consulting with people who are more intelligent or experienced than us about various matters. It's not optional.

So within that framework, there's a moral dimension to what we believe and accept, even in matters that one wouldn't initially think were matters of faith. If I go around claiming that 2+2=5, then I'm working against wisdom. Now, maybe that bit of foolishness ends with me, or maybe it means a rocket I designed crashes, or maybe it makes my kids think Christianity and mathematics are incompatible and abandon mathematics or Christianity. But whatever the outcome, it's still a sin.

I certainly grant that the scientific issues surrounding YEC are harder to sift through than 2+2. But you've got Christians going back almost to the beginning reading Genesis 1 non-literally (Origen), and you've got plenty of faithful biblical scholars and scientists in the present day, from many Christian denominations, saying that there is no conflict between the Bible and a 13-14 billion year-old universe. In that context, presenting YEC as not just one logical possibility (which I accept, given the proper qualifications), but the only correct possibility, and indeed as a crucially important doctrine, is wrong-headed to the point of exposing oneself to the charge of embracing foolishness outright.

(I want to be clear here that I can't draw a red line on many issues, to say that beyond this point, having a wrong belief is sinful. But as I'm not the Judge, that doesn't bother me.)

adam.baker
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    I haven't finished reading through the other answers yet, but so far this is the closest to what I was trying to get. I find it... interesting that YEC has a case that rejection of their views undermines the whole of Christian theology, but no one has so far offered a comparable case for the other direction. This, while not IMHO as compelling as the YEC case (and capable of being used on either side) is at least on the right track. – Matthew Apr 08 '22 at 14:38
  • "But whatever the outcome, it's still a sin." I haven't been here in a while, but when I was a regular these kinds of prescriptive comments were prohibited. –  Apr 10 '22 at 03:08
  • @Matthew It helps explain YEC fanaticism in contrast with virtually everyone else's apathy. –  Apr 10 '22 at 03:10
  • @fгedsbend It wasn't intended as a slight against Duoduopentarians as such — I was only trying to communicate that there's a point at which rejecting even non-revealed truth has moral consequences. – adam.baker Apr 11 '22 at 06:03
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A belief in YEC, requires believing that physical observation and scientific discovery of the universe are lies that contradict the Biblical truth.

Most logical and reasonable people will accept the reality of an ancient universe, so they must reject whatever YEC supporters are saying, which includes the validity of the biblical record. YEC is basically saying: we believe something that appears to be demonstrably false and easily disprovable, but if you are willing to believe it too, then here is what Christianity is all about … .

Fortunately, some denominations believe in a "gap theory", in which the universe was created billions of years ago (Genesis 1:1), and then rebuilt into its current form about 6000 years ago (Genesis 1:2–…). This belief fits far better into the current scientific view of the world than does the young-Earth belief.

YEC presents a system that most people simply can't accept as true, and as a result they won't even get around to looking at the essential beliefs of Christianity itself.

Ray Butterworth
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    "A belief in YEC, requires believing that physical observation and scientific discovery of the universe are lies that contradict the Biblical truth." That's just not true at all. YECs accept all scientific observations. What they disagree about is how to interpret those observations and combine them into a cohesive and comprehensive model. There's lots to dispute about how they do that, but saying they reject scientific observations is just not true. – curiousdannii Apr 08 '22 at 09:38
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    Almost no denominations teach the gap theory, I haven't heard of any. Instead the most common alternative interpretation is the framework model. – curiousdannii Apr 08 '22 at 09:39
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    I'm most certainly not a YEC. I'm more or less apathetic as to the age of the Earth. However, this answer entirely misrepresents the YES position. YECs do not reject scientific data, and in fact they have pointed out some very real flaws in isotope dating systems. I've yet to see an anti-YEC offer a convincing rebuttal to their objections regarding isotope dating systems. They are mostly just dismissed as "anti-science," but no one ever shows why their concerns are invalid. – jaredad7 Apr 08 '22 at 14:28
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    @curiousdannii "how to interpret those observations". But most people see the YEC interpretations as being very contrived, ad hoc, and unbelievable. Requiring them to accept the unbelievable before learning about the important doctrines effectively cuts them off. The second part of DJClayworth's answer is a more concise and better worded way of saying what I was trying to say. – Ray Butterworth Apr 08 '22 at 14:35
  • @curiousdannii says "Almost no denominations teach the gap theory, I haven't heard of any.". See Did Dinosaurs Kill God?, The World Before Man: The Biblical Explanation, and other such booklets. … – Ray Butterworth Apr 08 '22 at 14:47
  • @curiousdannii … Where Do the Dinosaurs Fit? begins with this quotation: "I don't believe in the Bible because dinosaurs lived a long time before man ever did.", which directly addresses the OP question. – Ray Butterworth Apr 08 '22 at 14:47
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    @jaredad7 The question is "according to non-YECs". It's objectively true that many non-YECs believe that YECs are rejecting overwhelming scientific data, and that the arguments of YECs, and the "flaws" they have pointed out, has been sufficiently rebutted. Whether YECs are actually rejecting overwhelming scientific data or actually have good scientific arguments is beside the point, because that's not what the question asks. – NotThatGuy Apr 09 '22 at 12:32
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    @DJClayworth YEC can have a direct impact on people's lives if they reject critical scientific findings (such as in medicine or climate change) that rely on evolution/an old Earth, and YEC can lead to distrusting the mainstream scientific community in general, which can very directly kill people. Also, trying to come to an agreement on the correct interpretation of this particular part (or other parts) of the Bible seems rather important for theology, because that interpretation has ripple effects for how you interpret the rest of the Bible, and how you believe God interacts with reality. – NotThatGuy Apr 09 '22 at 13:00
  • @DJClayworth That's a social problem, not theological. Theology having internal consistency is necessarily apathetic of social effects, just like science. –  Apr 10 '22 at 03:05
  • @NotThatGuy I would be very interested in the rebuttals you mentioned. Could you share a link? – jaredad7 Apr 11 '22 at 13:27
  • @jaredad7 I've seen people rebut YEC claims across dozens or hundreds of videos across a number of channels (Forrest Valkai and Gutsick Gibbon, for example, are 2 who focus a lot on the science, while others are more varied or discuss YEC and theism on a more philosophical basis). Although the most outspoken rebutters are atheists, for obvious reasons, which I wouldn't expect that to carry too much weight here. If you're "yet to see an anti-YEC offer a convincing rebuttal", then I expect you've already heard and dismissed their rebuttals (or you simply haven't gone looking for rebuttals yet). – NotThatGuy Apr 12 '22 at 02:05
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    @NotThatGuy maybe I've heard bad arguments and dismissed those. Why not post the best? – jaredad7 Apr 12 '22 at 18:29
  • @jaredad7 The best what with respect to what? Given that I don't consider any YEC claim to have much scientific merit, there isn't any specific rebuttal (amongst the hundreds of videos I've watched of the creators mentioned above, and others) that I consider to be particularly noteworthy or worth keeping a link to handy. If there's any claim you find to be compelling, then I would suggest trying to find a rebuttal for that specifically by Googling for that or trying to find an atheist/scientist forum to ask on (assuming you're not interested in just watching rebuttals of YEC in general). – NotThatGuy Apr 12 '22 at 19:22
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Young Earth Creationism (YEC) is not immediately theologically heretical. On the other hand, in the 21st Century, the YEC movement is indirectly theologically heretical because it grounds truth in flat intellectualism/scientism, conceding the thick biblical view of truth as have analytical and dynamic/lived dimensions.

  1. Hermeneutically, it flattens biblical understandings of truth by equating the static, propositional symbolic representations of reality that is the Bible as a book, with the living, breathing Word of God who always reveals God within the language and context which persons themselves exist. YEC wants to make Genesis 1-11 foundational to 21st century history books and science textbooks when it was intended to convey truth ‘to ancient peoples’.

  2. Theologically, therefore, it marks a trend following the enlightenment of rationalizing and intellectualizing the gospel which is not inherently antithetical to historical/scientific facts, but goes beyond those to address us as holistic, relational beings. In that sense, it is akin to (though not identical with) the Gnosticism of the early church which emphasized ‘knowledge’ of God at the expense of Jesus embodied incarnation.

  3. Practically, you can see this play out in the ways that YEC proponents are increasingly intellectually and socially ghettoized. This secret knowledge (again paralleling gnosticism) sets them apart as intellectually superior to the rest of the world, but simultaneously isolates them in an intellectual bubble. 'Anti-science' attitudes like anti-vaccination perspectives are now virtually identical with YEC because of their intellectual insulation and tribalism. This tribalism promotes the type of 'all or nothing' fundamentalist theology noted in other answers.

This is not the same thing as saying evolution is undeniably true, or that God could not have, or did not create all things 6,000 years ago in 6 24 hour days. It is the movement itself that is theologically problematic, not the propositions put forth.

Two books I would recommend that have informed my thinking on this topic are: How (not) to be Secular by James K. A. Smith and Relational Spirituality by Hall and Hall.

ninthamigo
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    I've seen the claimed analogy with Gnosticism before. I don't agree with it — I think it's a hostile misrepresentation of YEC, and that Gnosticism had significant other flaws not present even in the caricature of YEC that its opponents create — but this is, at least, in line with the sort of answer I was trying to get, so +1. (Also, the claim isn't categorically different from the YEC accusation of non-YECs putting "science" before God.) – Matthew Apr 08 '22 at 15:01
  • I hope this post doesn't come across as saying YEC is a form of gnosticism, that's not my intention here. Instead I would suggest that a root 'intellectual' to the exclusion of dynamic view of truth is foundational to both Gnosticism and YEC. In other words they share a common ancestor. ;) – ninthamigo Apr 08 '22 at 15:04
  • That's an interesting choice of words. "Dynamic view of truth" is a very postmodernist notion which many Christians reject, and which I at least believe is *firmly* non-Biblical. God is unchanging (Malachi 3:6, Hebrews 13:8, others). God's Truth is real and unchanging. There is nothing "secret" about YEC knowledge, and it isn't that YEC is isolated, but that all non-Materialism (including non-Christians, e.g. ID) are isolated. And the Bible does say that Christians will be persecuted. – Matthew Apr 08 '22 at 15:14
  • God's truth is unchanging because it is dynamic. Translating the Hebrew bible into English is an example of dynamic truth, not changing truth. Islam supports the static definition of truth that says God's truth is untranslatable. – ninthamigo Apr 08 '22 at 15:16
  • In my experience, the 'secret' aspect is more a feeling (when I was younger I debated publicly in favor of YEC) than a method which is distinct from gnostic practice. But that feeling helps encourage separatist views of truth. YEC is also strongly connected in practice to versions of strict Calvinism or at least predestination/election. Only regenerated minds can know the truth about God, and this maps onto the experience of YEC believers in the sense that non-creationists seem close-minded and 'stubborn-hearted'. – ninthamigo Apr 08 '22 at 15:19
  • I agree with the last part (and yes, that matches my experience). That said, this is the point where I refer you to 2 Thessalonians 2:10-11 🙂. And, to a lesser extent, Romans 1:20 and 2 Peter 3:3-6. – Matthew Apr 08 '22 at 15:23
  • You clearly are a good reader though because that is a very important phrase in my answer. I notice you describe ID/YEC as non-materialism. (1) I do not equate YEC with ID, most of what I say above doesn't apply to ID. (2) Non-materialism is gnosticism so I think you mistyped, but this is an example of the semantic confusion that YEC can produce. – ninthamigo Apr 08 '22 at 15:24
  • Not saying the regeneration point is invalid, merely that they seem to come as a package deal which is psychologically fascinating, but not theologically problematic. If, anything, it points to the coherence of YEC with certain forms of Calvinism that makes it more intellectually cogent and appealing. Conversely, it makes it suggests YEC is more theologically entrenched than its exponents sometimes would like to admit. – ninthamigo Apr 08 '22 at 15:27
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    I take issue with one point here: "Wrong" is not the same as "heretical". I don't believe YEC is heretical. One can be a YEC believer and a good Christian. Many are. – DJClayworth Apr 08 '22 at 15:46
  • @DJClayworth I think you misunderstand my use of the phrase "not theologically heretical". I use it for exactly what you are saying. I believe YEC is wrong (scientifically and theologically as a movement) but not heretical. I clarify that that the 'wrong' theological is not heretical, which means I agree many YEC believers are good Christians. For example, 95% of my church is YEC at least in belief. – ninthamigo Apr 08 '22 at 16:01
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    I don't think YECs generally like their reputation, but they are certainly steadfast in their belief, even baffled that other Christians don't "see the truth". Yes, it's an "intellectual bubble", but not a worship of secret knowledge, as Gnosticism was. –  Apr 10 '22 at 03:17
  • @DJClayworth For YEC to be heresy or not requires a dogmatic framework. I initially thought this answer was a Catholic one, since that church officially leaves the issue to the conscience of the individual believer, ergo, not heresy (but also not dogma). –  Apr 10 '22 at 03:23
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    @fгedsbend I like your use of the term 'intellectual bubble' it gets across better what I am trying to suggest here. Although I'm also implying that being in an intellectual bubble makes one susceptible to other false teachings. – ninthamigo Apr 10 '22 at 21:34
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I would like to challenge the basis of the question rather than outright answer it. Specifically, the claim that

if such arguments can be sustained, they would be a powerful argument in favor of YEC.

This seems to me to be saying that the stricter belief is the safer belief, and the safer belief is the better belief—because it’s safer, not because it’s true.

The logic runs like so:

  1. There are two opposed positions, A and B.
  2. A and B are irreconcilable. (A implies not-B. B implies not-A.)
  3. A asserts that the difference is, in some sense, important. (If A, then believe-B implies consequence C, and believe-A implies not-C.)
  4. B asserts that the difference is not important. (If B, then believe-A does not imply C, and believe-B does not imply C.)
  5. Consequence C is undesirable.
  6. Therefore it is objectively best to believe A, as that avoids consequence C regardless of A or B.

It’s Pascal’s Wager all over again.


I say that this is not a good reason to hold a belief. For one thing, it produces insincere belief. If you support a position because of an argument like this, do you really believe it? Do you think it’s true, or just a safe bet?

For another thing, it is contrary to Romans 14. If the above logic were sound, wouldn’t Paul have told us all to be A-ists? But instead, he teaches that A-ists must not judge B-ists, and B-ists must not have contempt for A-ists.

So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves.


Lastly, just for the avoidance of any doubt, let me emphasise that I am not identifying Young Earth Creationism with A, and its rejection with B. I am talking about a particular line of logic that takes “I can tolerate your belief, but you can’t tolerate mine” as an argument in favour of the stricter (less tolerant) belief. Such logic can certainly be used on both sides of this, and probably any, debate.

Tim Pederick
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  • Assuming you are thinking of Romans 14:13 specifically (or the general idea that verse specifically mentions, as opposed to something else), the problem is that that cuts both ways, with both sides seeing the other as a potential stumbling block. OTOH, both sides also seem to want to tolerate each other. FWIW, I think most YECs do believe it's true; because it's "safer" is a(nother) reason to promote their beliefs. – Matthew Apr 13 '22 at 15:43
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Preamble:

When I speak of a non-YEC I speak of a person who believes God used the evolutionary process to create instead of His direct 'miraculous' agency (like speaking things into existence and going on His knees and taking dirt in His hands and forming a man, etc.) We could argue about an exact definition that includes everyone's ten cents but this one is just so you can better understand why I answer the way I do.

Answer:

Non-YECs and YEC's differ in what they believe before they read and interpret Scripture. Therefore, all theology of YECs must be viewed as detrimental to non-YECs and vice versa.

The one believes man's limited discovery and understanding of God's natural laws first, then interprets Scripture in light of this more important belief already held. The other doesn't and believes a literal reading and interpretation of Genesis.

Because the non-YEC believes that the laws we see governing the universe today have done so to bring about everything in the univers, a foundational theological detriment about YECs would have to include the belief about God Himself. How does God interact with the laws of the universe that He created when He creates and what does this tell us about Him?

If He created reality to always function just as predictable as we can clearly observe today, then it would seem dishonest to maintain a YEC interpretation. Here we have the second theological detriment - honesty.

Honesty not only of the YECs but of God Himself. If God created the laws of the universe, why then break those rules in the act of creating by the miraculous intervention that a literal reading of Genesis implies? It would seem to make no sense for a divine being that claims omniscience to make laws to govern reality if He is going to need to break them in the act of extending that reality.

It is either the natural laws of God that created or God Himself. It cannot be both for the non-YEC because the non-YEC is not making the rules of evolution - atheistic science is.

If the non-YEC chooses to believe God used evolution to create then he/she cannot depart from how atheistic science defines the 'rules' of evolution (how the universe works according to finite, atheistic, non-omniscient beings that the Bible elsewhere says are born in the darkness of sin and ignorance of God). (This is a serious theological detriment that could be discussed if the OP was framed the other way).

With an evolutionary understanding wholly dependent on man's supposed knowledge of the universe, it would seem that a YEC interpretation would make God dishonest and even struggling to create because of natural laws He made. These laws appear to modern man to be doing everything that He had to 'manually override' in Genesis 1 and 2 if we read it literally as YECs do.

These laws would seem deficient or unnecessary. If God overides them anyway in the act of creating, why have them? It paints a picture of a God that is still struggling to figure out what exactly good and necessary laws are so He can walk away and let things be; a God in need of debugging the software that runs the universe.

By extension, such a picture of God would cause serious theological concerns when we learn that He has a moral law that governs morality in His universe. It would make one question if this law needs some manual overrides when necessary?

With just dishonesty and a lack of logic as theological detriments in mind, it is easy to see why all theology of YECs must be considered detrimental in the eyes of a non-YEC.

I hope it is clear to the discerning reader that non-YECs have even greater theological detriments to answer for because of their beliefs about 'science' and that I would argue for that, but, it is beyond the requested answer scope of this question.

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    "If God created the laws of the universe, why then break those rules in the act of creating?" Huh? This is like saying that a roleplaying game dungeon master is being dishonest because they set rules for the players but don't need to obey those rules themselves. God isn't part of the universe, so he can't break the laws of the universe. – curiousdannii Apr 10 '22 at 02:50
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    The first theological answer. Non-YEC say "YEC makes God dishonest, designing an Earth with 'old' evidence". But I do also struggle with what looks like an arbitrary "no interference" rule on God. –  Apr 10 '22 at 03:28
  • Is it that your formulation is backwards? God created the laws of the universe, then created the universe (and thereby immediately broke the laws in the act of creation)? I've always taken the complaint as I said above: "God made a universe that looks old." Which inspires in my mind a kind of great setup, like a rube goldberg, then pushed in motion. –  Apr 10 '22 at 03:33
  • @curiousdannii I would refrain from entering into a discussion with you for fear that you will also delete these comments as you seem to have done on Peter's question about the 10 Commandments. Was that convenient face saving attempt? –  Apr 10 '22 at 05:06
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    @AndriesStander Comments are transitory, they are meant to result in the improvement of posts, and once that has happened, they get cleaned up. I didn't remove those other comments to save face, and I'm not sure why you'd think I might think I would want to... As to this answer, I truly don't understand how your point is meant to be reasonable. Does my analogy make sense to you? – curiousdannii Apr 10 '22 at 05:35
  • I see. Well, I read those posts and it looked to me like you got a reaction that you did not expect. Why not clean up all other transitory comments on other questions then? I have seen others that could do with your cleaning up too. Anyway. Your analogy does not make any sense to me as I am not into gaming really but I think I get what you are trying to say. Thank you for your comment. It made me realise that I neglected to add a very important part of that would make clear why I think it to be reasonable. Will add it somewhere today hopefully. –  Apr 10 '22 at 06:11
  • Feel free to flag any comments you think have served their purpose. Looking forward to seeing your edit later. – curiousdannii Apr 10 '22 at 11:27
  • This is... an interesting answer. But it has two major flaws. First, it implies God was dishonest when He said He created everything in six days and in a particular order. Second, it implies that any miracle is dishonest. Since there are a number of those recorded in the Bible, in particular the resurrection of Christ, I think you have a serious issue with this approach... – Matthew Apr 10 '22 at 20:41
  • @Matthew It is clear that you misunderstand my answer. I am not implying that at all. I am saying that from a non-YECs perspective this is what it should also boil down to when looking at some of the theological detriments of YEC. I will still update my answer to try clarify as promised to curiousdannii. –  Apr 11 '22 at 08:24
  • I'm not convinced I misunderstand it; more, I just don't agree with it 🙂. – Matthew Apr 11 '22 at 14:36
  • Fantastic Matthew, I think I have seen enough of your comments elsewhere to know this would be your response. :) –  Apr 11 '22 at 18:28
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    "These laws would seem deficient or unnecessary. If God overides them anyway in the act of creating, why have them?" What do you make of the Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy? Isn't it the case that God has set up physical laws (ie, descriptions of his regular providential upholding of the universe) that precisely describe how God acts when he is not intervening in unusual ways, such as creating the universe in the first place? The point of the laws is to describe the continuing existence of the universe. They don't describe the creation. – curiousdannii Apr 12 '22 at 11:52
  • I could not have said it better myself @curiousdannii. That is what I believe as a YEC and this the non-YEC cannot accept because he has tied himself to evolution as defined by 'science'. Remember also the OP was about what theological detriments do non-YECs see in a YEC belief of Genesis. My answer seeks to show those detriments while hopefully also showing the fatal theological detriment that non-YECs have in the eyes of YECs. –  Apr 12 '22 at 12:11
  • Huh. So you don't actually think what you're posting here? It's a bit convoluted then. Do you know that non-YECs make these kind of arguments? They seem like straw man arguments to me. – curiousdannii Apr 12 '22 at 12:13
  • Yes. I don't believe what I posted there as my personal view of Genesis. What I do however believe is that my arguments are not straw men. This is what I believe should also be at the very bottom of all non-YEC arguments. In my answer I try to give what I believe should be my issue with YEC IF I was a non-YEC. I try to put myself in their position and then just logically following through to the end point of the simple core on which their whole non-YEC belief stands. –  Apr 12 '22 at 12:20
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I'd like to present an answer which makes no reference to modern science nor to how it appears to skeptics, but only on how we read the Bible. My thinking here is based primarily on St. Augustine's The Literal Interpretation of Genesis, which I highly recommend you look at if you're interested in the Creation debate.

I think the hermeneutical problems with YEC are twofold:

  1. YEC misses the point of reading the Bible. Recall 2 Tim. 3:16-17: "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." Similarly, Paul also says in 1 Corinthians 10:11 that stories in the OT were written "for our instruction". We read the Bible not just to learn some facts, but because it's useful for Christian life. When YECs read Genesis 1-2, they look for some details about the creation of the world which have no conceivable relevance to Christian life or theology. They read Genesis 1 and think that, if they learn that God created the world over the course of 144 hours, they have understood the text. In doing this, they read the Bible as a history textbook instead of as the inspired Word of God.

  2. YEC does not promote a careful reading of the Biblical text. Augustine came to the conclusion that that the six days are not literal 24-hour periods based on reading the text carefully (he was not favorable to allegorical reading of the Bible, and frequently stresses literalism and authorial intent as essential principals for Biblical interpretation). In The Literal Meaning of Genesis he spends over a hundred pages on the creation week, looking at every detail. I'll just highlight three facts that he mentions which the YECs find it difficult to account for: Firstly, what is meant by a "day" before the creation of ground, sky, sun, or moon. The Newtonian notion of some absolute, reference-independent timescale which we could measure out 24-hours against is not supported by modern science, nor was it held by Augustine and other ancient philosophers. For Augustine and modern science, time only exists as measured by the things in it. Secondly, the seventh day is given with a morning but no evening, which is hard to account for if this is meant as a normal 24-hour day. The significance of the detail is hinted at, though never explicitly mentioned, in Hebrews 3-4, where the day of God's rest is compared with our eternal rest. Thirdly, the entire Creation period is called a "day" in Genesis 2:4, so if we're insisting on reading "day" literally every time, we have immediately a contradiction.

Dark Malthorp
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  • I'm not going to downvote, as I've seen this answer elsewhere, and thus, consider it useful. The problem is that this attitude is an either-or fallacy; it essentially asserts that a particular text can have either a straight-forward, historical meaning or a deeper theological meaning. Now, it may be that some YECs are guilty of seeing only the one and missing the other, but that doesn't make the historical reading wrong. – Matthew Jul 28 '23 at 23:03
  • FYI, with respect to Genesis 2:4, no one denies that "day" can mean "A specified time or period; time, considered with reference to the existence or prominence of a person or thing; age; time; era". Scripturally, however, "י֔וֹם"/"י֗וֹם" used in that context is never accompanied by a specific number i.e. "the third day", nor by "evening and morning". Additionally, six days is repeated elsewhere in connection with the week, so unless you're arguing that humans are supposed to work for six eons then rest for one eon... – Matthew Jul 29 '23 at 04:21
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    Something I noted in the above chat that might be interesting to a more general audience... I'm not convinced that YEC "misses the point"; it may be that non-YECs simply get that impression (not unfairly) due to discussions tending to focus on differences of understanding and not shared understanding. – Matthew Aug 11 '23 at 18:16