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According to the RCC is supporting abortion the same sin as having an abortion?

(Not talking about the doctor. But supporters of the act of abortion.)

curiousdannii
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Gerrard
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  • In my opinion, and speaking as a Catholic, since doctors and nurses at abortion clinics are in favor of performing abortions, and they freely choose to perform abortions, they are the more guilty of sinning against God then the women who come in for abortions. – user57467 May 12 '22 at 15:52

2 Answers2

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To be an accomplice to murder (e.g., selling a gun, abortion instruments, etc.) is not necessarily the same as actually murdering. There's a distinction between material and formal cooperation in sin (cf. this article for more info). Material cooperation supplies the means for committing the sin, and formal cooperation assists in the act directly (e.g., two hit-men shooting one person at the same time would be both formally cooperating in the murder). And there are distinctions within material cooperation: proximate and remote cooperation. For example, a nurse handing an abortionist an instrument during his murdering of a child would be proximate material cooperation (some may argue it's formal cooperation) in murder for the nurse (and certainly formal cooperation for the abortionist). A surgical company making instruments that could be used for other purposes than abortion would be a remote material cooperation in the sin of abortion.

Voting for pro-abortion politicians certainly makes one an accomplice in the murders that politician permits.

Also, in the case of abortion, being an accomplice to it and directly performing it are both excommunicable offenses.

Geremia
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  • selling a gun and abortion instruments,I would say that is not the same,one is an instrument of murder The other is not,but can be.Other then that thank you for your Answer – Gerrard Oct 31 '16 at 23:18
  • I would give you an upvote But I don't have enough points or whatever – Gerrard Oct 31 '16 at 23:46
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    As this question is about RCC doctrine, can you supply a reference for the position that states, "Voting for pro-abortion politicians certainly makes one an accomplice in the murders that politician permits"? – Dick Harfield Nov 01 '16 at 03:38
  • @DickHarfield Given that about 50% of Catholics in the US voted for President Obama (per exit polls) and he is pro abortion, then we appear to have millions of accomplices running amok in the US. snarky grin Geremia, I suspect that support for your statement may come from Evangelium vitae -- if I can find the passage I'll offer to add the link and article ... unless you feel that, per sedevacantist views, he wasn't really the Pope. – KorvinStarmast Nov 01 '16 at 19:01
  • @Gerrard "selling a gun and abortion instruments,I would say that is not the same,one is an instrument of murder…" Yes, that's why I said "abortion instruments" and not simply "surgical instruments" (which could or could not be used for killing). – Geremia Nov 01 '16 at 19:29
  • @Geremia articles 57 and 59 of E. V. seem to support your point on complicity, even at a remove. You may wish to reference that, or not, in terms of applicability to your answer. – KorvinStarmast Nov 01 '16 at 20:13
  • #Geremia E.V article 73 may be more concise, in terms of Catholic perspective. "Abortion and euthanasia are thus crimes which no human law can claim to legitimize. There is no obligation in conscience to obey such laws; instead there is a grave and clear obligation to oppose them by conscientious objection." Followed by E.V. 74: "Christians, like all people of good will, are called upon under grave obligation of conscience not to cooperate formally in practices which, even if permitted by civil legislation, are contrary to God's law." – KorvinStarmast Nov 01 '16 at 20:22
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    @Geremia Abortion instrument are used for killing and nothing else,but a gun is mostly not. – Gerrard Nov 02 '16 at 01:45
  • @Gerrard Yes, that's my point in the example. – Geremia Nov 02 '16 at 16:20
  • Ill vote for libre democracy over RCC theocracy every single time. I believe the freedom of religion ensured by the US Constitution fundamental to God's work in this latter-day. – Tom May 09 '22 at 05:21
  • @Tom By "theocracy", do you mean a regime that doesn't recognize the distinction between Church (spiritual power) and State (temporal power)? Or do you mean a regime in which the temporal power is subjected to the spiritual power (cf. Diuturnum, "On the Origin of Civil Power")? – Geremia May 09 '22 at 18:25
  • @Tom Technically, "theocracy" is "a realm where God Himself directly determines the form of government" (Integralism ch. 11 "The Two Swords [temporal & spiritual]"). – Geremia May 09 '22 at 18:25
  • @Geremia More on the terms of common and virtually universal English language definition, "a system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god" and Ill add a emphasis of in the name of, not by God. – Tom May 09 '22 at 21:35
  • @Tom The U.S. Constitution doesn't prohibit priests from holding political offices. – Geremia May 09 '22 at 21:48
  • @Geremia did you have a point or another alternative definition of a theocracy? The constitution of our democratic republic explicitly addresses a theocracy with the establishment clause. In your world I along with 2/3rd of American and just over 50% of those reporting to be religious, are accomplices to murder by not voting for authoritarians. In my world, I am standing up for religious freedom. Would you also have a Ministry of Vice and Virtue to ensure your idea of morality is followed? – Tom May 10 '22 at 02:40
  • If the RCC is has a 501c3 charity determination, it should not be telling its followers who to vote for or any partisan speech, that freedom was exchanged for the tax-exempt status. – Tom May 10 '22 at 02:47
  • Let us continue this discussion in chat. – Geremia May 10 '22 at 17:44
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No.

“When a Catholic does not share a candidate’s stand in favor of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons.” — Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

The loud voices that want all abortions to be illegal rather than a choice is a small minority, including among US Catholics yet the RCC is clear that abortion is wrong. This juxtaposition says shows it is two different things.

Pope Francis' actions around Pres. Biden's access to Communion has implications an example to follow. Pres. Biden openly supports choice and is a "good Catholic" rather than an murderer.

I think the answer lies in avoiding extremism and embracing a leveled approach that includes the principle of agency and loving Children of God. Despite RCC's stance on having an abortion, an individual still has to make a decision on who the vote for, and how they treat others. Would The Savoir throw bricks at clinicians of an abortion clinic? Can God be duped and enable the devil if only Lucifer promises to end abortions? Of course not.

I'm not an RCC expert (just a devote Christian), but a quick web search demonstrated that issue is nuances is not binary as @Geremina claims.

Tom
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  • "but votes for that candidate for other reasons," the onus is on you to argue that all supporting of abortion is equivalent to what Ratzinger meant as "for other reasons". That said, "The loud voices that want all abortions to be illegal rather than a choice is a small minority" is almost certainly false given the number of surveys that show pro-life positions are supported. "Pres. Biden openly supports choice and is a "good Catholic" says He and his supporters, not the Church or her doctrine – eques May 10 '22 at 17:45
  • @eques For me, religious liberty out weights abortion, for some candidates, it is quite easy, others take more work to sort out. Its on us.

    https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/05/06/americas-abortion-quandary

    https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/10/20/8-key-findings-about-catholics-and-abortion

    https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/03/30/u-s-catholics-divided-by-party-on-whether-biden-should-be-denied-communion-over-his-abortion-stance

    Does Pope Francis not speak for the RCC? https://www.catholicnews.com/pilgrims-path-parsing-what-the-president-said-the-pope-said

     – Tom May 11 '22 at 03:37
  • But it's not what you think that matters but what the Church teaches. You can't take quotes from Ratzinger et al and use them to justify what they didn't mean. Pope Francis is the head of the Church on earth at present, but to say "he speaks for the Church" doesn't potentially mean what you think it does. Also, "the RCC" as a term is only used by anti-Catholics; please don't use it – eques May 11 '22 at 13:21
  • @eques The OP used the acronym RCC. I did not mean any offense, but "The Church" is not accurate either. – Tom May 11 '22 at 17:18
  • My point is that the Catholic Church is ambiguous on this issue. If its not binary for the Pope and (62% ? of US Catholics) then it prob should not be binary for this question.

    Loving they neighbor is 1/2 of the the two great commandments. Treating pro-liberty, pro-privacy, pro-choice, what ever you want to call it as accomplice to murder is in consistent with the Savior's example ... and that of Pope Francis.

     – Tom May 11 '22 at 17:21
  • Ratzinger's quote resonates with me because there is a individual responsibly to look at the whole and not vote only on a single issue.

    This is also similar to my faith's doctrine:

    "Each citizen must therefore decide which issues are most important to him or her at any particular time ... seek inspiration on how to exercise their influence according to their individual priorities ... sometimes require voters to support candidates or political parties or platforms whose other positions they cannot approve."

    ​https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2021/04/51oaks

     – Tom May 11 '22 at 17:43
  • " what ever you want to call it as accomplice to murder is in consistent with the Savior's example" maybe I'm misremembering the Bible but where does Christ permit murder? Where does he say that you can ignore the harm done to the defenseless? Where does he say that you can turn a blind eye to your brother's sin? – eques May 11 '22 at 18:21
  • The Church is not ambiguous; various leaders do not define doctrine. The doctrine is fairly clear. "there is a individual responsibly to look at the whole and not vote only on a single issue"; The question is about supporting abortion. Ratzinger says that one can vote for someone who holds an immoral opinion as long as that isn't the reason why. If you vote for someone because they support an immoral person OR choose the person who supports more grave evils, then you are formally cooperating. – eques May 11 '22 at 18:23
  • "where does Christ permit murder" That's the thing. Its not murder, at least not in all cases. Do you also say "where does Christ permit murder" in response to capital punishment? Military aggression? Self-defense? Stand your ground laws?

    Whether abortion is murder is not what this question is about. My answer allows the belief that all abortion is murder (to be clear it is not) but that loving they neighbor or that supporting religious liberty etc is not the same as having caused the abortion.

     – Tom May 11 '22 at 22:04
  • "various leaders do not define doctrine" In my faith the living prophets do define new and clarify existing doctrine - not all and not in all settings. The link I shared of Pres Oaks talk on our constitution is one of those defining messages.

    According to the Catholic Church, the Pope is not a spiritual leader concerning God's will? Is his example at least worth looking to for inspiration?

     – Tom May 11 '22 at 22:09
  • all abortion is murder; capital punishment is not murder. If you are going to discuss Catholic theology, you have to be able to make distinctions. Religious liberty is irrelevant. You can discern the immorality of abortion through natural reason (See secular pro-life). The question was if supporting abortion was the same sin as having one. If one is a sin, to support another in their sin, would be a sin. That's a general Christian concept. My point about leaders not defining was that you can't take every quote of a Pope et al and conclude a doctrinal statement from it – eques May 11 '22 at 23:53
  • Religious liberty is just an example of the lessor of two evils in regards to Ratzinger.

    "If one is a sin, to support another in their sin," Well we are all sinners so that would be rather unfortunate. It is not consistent with examples of the Savoir and of Pope Francis. And it is directly opposite of my "general Christian concepts". These absolutist views represent only a minority of Christianity.

     – Tom May 12 '22 at 06:13
  • @eques The 3 examples in my answer demonstrate that it is not the same thing within the RCC. You have not provided a single canon or scripture or anything other than your own warrantless claims of the contrary. I don't know the RCC doctrine, but I doubt rejecting the Savior's example as you have rejected the Pope's is part. Its find to not agree with me, I don't expect you to, but let see some real definitive info proving the contrary or lest move on. – Tom May 12 '22 at 06:21
  • This isn't from my church and is not part of the OP, but the whole notion of not supporting others in their sins as fundamental to Christianity is just flat our wrong and needs to be rejected on face. https://churchleaders.com/outreach-missions/outreach-missions-articles/265391-3-times-jesus-modeled-how-to-treat-sinners.html – Tom May 12 '22 at 06:22
  • The question is tagged "catholicism" so your answer must come from that perspective. My point is that you have selectively taken quotes and misapplied them. I pointed out what Ratzinger's quote actually means and you doubled down on it. Your link doesn't counter "don't support people in their sins" and it is fundamental to not support people in their sins. Show mercy and do not judge BUT DO NOT encourage, promote nor incentivize them to continue in their sins. – eques May 12 '22 at 13:22
  • What part of my answer is not from the perspective of the question, "According to the RCC..." ? I agree the US Catholic responses in that Pew Research study is not necessarily the RCC, but that is not what you are talking about. You seem to take issue with me quoting Ratzinger and the anecdote of the Pope's example. So where is the official counter doctrine from the Roman Catholic Church that says it is the same without any ambiguity? Its specifically about the RCC and not a different Catholic church and especially not about a fringe "covenant community". – Tom May 12 '22 at 18:23
  • Your initial answer includes Catholic sources but that doesn't make it a Catholic answer anymore than quoting the Bible makes it necessarily a Christian answer. Then you back up your discussion points with non-Catholic sources. Ratzinger's quote is a good one BUT YOU ARE USING IT TO JUSTIFY SOMETHING HE IS OPPOSING. – eques May 12 '22 at 19:11
  • @eques I have only had one answer. I'm sorry the current Pope's example and the previous Pope's quote are not Catholic enough for you, but I have asked you for counter info/doctrine over and over again - you only reply with unsupported claims.

    How am I distorting Ratzinger's message when I provided the entire quote? Are you saying that he doesn't really mean what he says? According to Ratzinger, it maybe permissible to support a candidate that happens to be pro-liberty/pro-choice when there are bigger issues at play i.e. "the presence of proportionate reasons"

     – Tom May 12 '22 at 23:06
  • He means that a candidate for political office that supports an immoral position like abortion can be voted for without committing sin as long as that isn't the reason you chose for voting for that person. Hence, it doesn't answer the question about whether supporting abortion is the same sin as abortion itself because he's saying that act is not supporting abortion. – eques May 13 '22 at 12:50
  • Furthermore, you are attempting to say because some clerics seem to permit communion to pro-abortion politicians, that the Church allows for supporting abortion and you are attempting to say because some Catholics dissent, the position is more nuanced. None of which is correct. Catholic doctrine is not by consensus. The Church has consistently opposed abortion since the 1st century and imposed strong penalties on those who aid in them. Biden says he's a good Catholic but many in the Church would say you cannot be a good Catholic and promote a grave evil. – eques May 13 '22 at 12:57
  • So you acknowledge that Ratzinger drew a distinction in the context of voting/supporting someone who is pro-liberty/pro-life (again if there are "proportionate reasons") to back the vote and not only a pro-liberty/pro-life position.

    "some clerics" I referenced the the current and previous Pope as well as the rather significant majority of US Catholics. You have only shared your opinion and refused the invitation to share countering doctrine clearly showing "supporting abortion the same sin as having an abortion." You may feel a certain way, but the question is about the RCC's position.

     – Tom May 13 '22 at 16:38
  • I'm not the one answering the question. The point of comments is to ask the answerer to clarify their response, to add clarifications, etc. You have two downvotes because people found it to be a problematic answer. It's not my job to answer the question for you. I'm not sure what you are saying that I'm acknowledging. My point was an allowance for voting for someone who holds a position the Church condemns is NOT the same as saying that supporting abortion is or isn't a sin equal to committing abortion. It's effectively an orthogonal concern – eques May 13 '22 at 16:50
  • Right. Your just the one saying my answer is wrong with nothing but your opinion, as if you alone represent all of Catholicism or the RCC - at least more so than the two most recent Popes. – Tom May 14 '22 at 05:23
  • I'm not saying based upon my opinion nor that I'm represent all of Catholicism. I'm saying YOU AREN'T ANSWERING THE QUESTION. The question is not whether you can vote for someone who supports positions the Church condemns (what your Ratzinger quote addresses) nor whether American Catholics do support abortion or support legalizing it (what the rest of your answer appears to comment on). The question is whether supporting abortion is sinful and as sinful as getting abortion according to Catholic doctrine and Your answer doesn't address that at all. – eques May 14 '22 at 18:35