3

Summary of the question: How can the "angel of the Lord" be the pre-incarnate Jesus if Hebrews 1:5 makes the point that God never said "Thou art my Son" to any angel? Those who believe Michael the archangel is Jesus (JW, SDA, and others) usually get Hebrews 1:5 quoted by those who don't share their belief about Michael in an effort to disprove their belief. But what about those who believe the angel of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Jesus? Doesn't the same verse disprove that belief?

This is a fairly widely accepted stance, in my opinion. We even have the following question with good answers on this very site: On what basis do some Protestants believe the angel of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ?

However, some groups like Jehovah's Witnesses (due to the belief that Jesus is Michael the Archangel) have to respond to questions like this one: Don't the questions of Hebrews 1:5 and 1:13 demand an answer of 'None'? So how can Jehovah's Witnesses say that Jesus is the archangel Michael?

How would a Protestant who believes the angel of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Jesus (or any Christian who believes this) respond to a very similar question?

If one believes that the angel of the Lord was the pre-incarnate Jesus, how can that be reconciled with Hebrews 1:5 (KJV):

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

I've heard some explain this by saying that the angel of the Lord was not a created angel so that excludes him from the context of "the angels" in this passage. However, the verse doesn't say, "For unto which of the created angels said he at any time"...

Of course, the basic meaning of "angel" in both the Hebrew and Greek is "messenger". But that doesn't really change the meaning of the passage either. I'm curious how this could be answered satisfactorily.

GratefulDisciple
  • 23,032
  • 5
  • 31
  • 96
Aleph-Gimel
  • 166
  • 9
  • 4
    The 'messenger' can be either the uncreated Deity himself or the 'messenger' can be a created spirit-being. In Malachi 3 the 'Messenger' of the Covenant is 'the Lord himself'. I don't see why you have a problem myself. In the Old Testament, manifestations of the yet to be revealed Son are of an angelic kind. When he is manifested in humanity, he reveals the Father by his own Sonship. – Nigel J Mar 10 '24 at 00:44
  • 1
    Looks like that could be the start of a good answer. I wouldn't include the, "I don't see why you have a problem myself" bit, though lol. I never said it was a problem. And even if it were a problem for me, saying it's not a problem for you doesn't resolve anything. – Aleph-Gimel Mar 10 '24 at 01:02
  • 1
    @Aleph-Gimel It appears to me that you are reading something into the verse which is known as "eisegesis." The purpose of Hebrews 1:5 is to show the superiority of Jesus Christ over the angels. To me the words of the verse, "For to which of the angels did He ever say etc. Is "rhetorical, " meaning to make a point rather than get an answer. Now, it would be nice if you would answer or post your own answer to you own question below so I/we can understand your point? – Mr. Bond Mar 10 '24 at 18:35
  • Sorry about this - I thought it was a simple question but I'll try to rephrase it when I get a chance. – Aleph-Gimel Mar 10 '24 at 21:47
  • OK I tried to update this question to simplify it - hope it makes sense... – Aleph-Gimel Mar 11 '24 at 16:49

3 Answers3

2

I have already answered this in another question like this.

Angel can be a linguistic characteristic of the uncreated Logos or Metatron (men have also been called gods Ps 82:6) and it can also be a technical classification of the created heavenly beings, as we see in the Pauline text where he separates the Son of God with all created beings, presenting him as the source of all creation.

Regardless of your interpretation of Heb 1:5, it doesn't entail that Jesus was a created angel.

Michael16
  • 1,736
  • 8
  • 13
  • Thanks for that, I do appreciate it. And, yes, I recall seeing your response on the other question. I was hoping for a better explanation than something like, "Jesus wasn't a created angel" as seen in the original question. You gave some more Info, though, so that's nice. SDA understand Michael as Jesus but uncreated...so that would fit it with your answer here? – Aleph-Gimel Mar 12 '24 at 23:35
  • Yes. If they see him a separate eternal God. – Michael16 Mar 13 '24 at 02:55
  • One thing to remember is that there will be minor differences in beliefs even from the scripture authors, this is why some might describe the messiah as Michael or Michael as metatrone. Others may explicitly exclude the Messiah or Metatron from a designated archangle like Michael. From Paul's authentic and systematic teachings we know the details that we shouldn't count Jesus or the Son as any angel, but that he is one with God. If you have more questions on this then ask. – Michael16 Mar 13 '24 at 10:39
  • Right so it's a bit less strict than I was reading it previously. Before, my mind was telling me that the angel of the Lord wasn't an angel at all...in any sense, because of Heb 1:5. For what it's worth, these questions are of interest to me but aren't of great salvific importance imo. I'll accept your answer. – Aleph-Gimel Mar 13 '24 at 13:28
  • Maybe this would have been a better question for the hermeneutics SE now that I think about it. – Aleph-Gimel Mar 13 '24 at 13:30
2

This is what you stated: "For what it's worth, these questions are of interest to me but aren't of great salvific importance imo." You could not be more wrong.

If Jesus Christ is also Michael the arc angel then according to the Apostle Paul you have a different Jesus. 2 Corinthians 11:4, "For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you might go along with it."

Here is what the Apostle Paul states at Galatians 1:6-9. "I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel. Vs7, which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you, and want to distort the gospel of Christ. Vs8, But even though we, or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed. Vs9, As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you have received, let him be accursed.

I have to say Few Against Many-Israel, this is so important that the Apostle Paul thought it necessary to repeat himself. Why? Because it has eternal consequences. You can't just go around saying things like you did (whatever the topic might be) and act or say, "it's not that important."

This is not kids stuff, your in the big leagues now and if you state a position or opinion you have to prove your position. Read Acts 17:11. Before you ask a question do your own research/homework on it first. This is one way to learn.

Now, getting back to this idea that Michael the arc angel is Jesus Christ. This is a "fallacy" known as a "category" error. In other words, you comparing "titles" with ontological beings. This is a branch of metaphysics dealing with the nature of being. All angels by definition are spiritual beings ontologically speaking.

Jesus Christ on the other hand and ontologically speaking is God by nature. ALL begotten sons, BY DEFINITION, bear the distinguishing nature of their own Fathers, hence, John 3:16. It's a universal law that all sons bear the nature of its father.

Also, Jesus was sent into the world. John 6:38, "I cam down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of Him that SENT ME." John 3:13, "And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man." John 4:34, "My food is to do the will of Him WHO SENT ME, and to accomplish His work." In order for someone to be sent, you have to have preexisted.

Mr. Bond
  • 5,138
  • 1
  • 7
  • 26
  • With all due respect, you didn't answer the question (so I had to downvote). I think you are also confusing me with a user called Few Against Many - Israel. For what it's worth, telling people that they're wrong isn't a great way to get your point across. Do you think one has to correctly identify the angel of the Lord to gain salvation? – Aleph-Gimel Mar 16 '24 at 15:18
  • @Aleph-Gimel I did answer your question even after you made an adjustment. There is nothing wrong telling someone their wrong. Jesus corrected others all the time. Paul did the same as well, read 2 Timothy 2:15-19 as an example. Also Romans 16:17, James 5:19, 2 Timothy 4:2 and others. So yes, (in my opinion) if one incorrectly identifies the angel of the Lord as Michael the arc angel or some other being you have a different Jesus. In the world of "apologetics" there are people who honestly may misunderstand and there are those who are close minded no matter what! "The Lord knows who are His." – Mr. Bond Mar 16 '24 at 17:48
  • Of course there's nothing wrong with correction...it's an absolute part of being a human. However, what I said was that telling people they're wrong isn't the best way to get your point across. Especially on this site. Anyways, my question here has nothing to do with Michael- I just pulled that in for reference. So, read the question again and try to answer it. – Aleph-Gimel Mar 17 '24 at 01:06
-3

Jesus is God's begotten son. Now let's check where in the Bible that verse can be found.

John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he sent his one and only begotten son..

Now let's check what the dictionary says about begotten

Begotten

Bring Into Existence

This means at some point God was responsible for bringing Jesus into existence otherwise God wouldn't be a father to Jesus if God wasn't responsible for his existence somehow.

And would Jesus call God Father if God didn't cause his existence?

Jesus called God Father in the Lord's prayer

Jesus called God Father when he commanded his disciples not to call anyone Father on earth

Jesus called God Father while he was on the cross dying.

Father-Son relationship between God and Jesus means they are a Spiritual Family and The Father begat the Son

So Few Against So Many
  • 1,301
  • 7
  • 20