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I often want to make my sentences short in order to pass our classroom exercise of writing a 簡體 abstract from memory in under 5 minutes. The biggest problem seems to be that I use 與，及其，與其，in inadmissible places.

The info we were given says, 與 can be used to connect nominal, adjectival and verbal phrases, with the first ones being the norm.

“与”较多连接名词性词语，也可连接动词性、
 形容词性词语，多用于书面语，书名、标题中常见。

Some people accepted

  1. 從該日起在此居住與唸書。

others wanted to replace 與 with 並。

The following was rejected explicitly on the grounds of the terms of 美國 and 美國的政治方法 being 不同類。

2a.該研究美國與其政治方法。

Would it be better to use this?

2b. 該研究美國及其政治方法。

On youdao there are sentences such as:

2c. 我们很乐意为这所房子及其庭院拍照。

Which I would assume to be exactly the type of 2b, particularly regarding similarity of terms (which I perhaps misunderstand). What about this?

3a. 辜鴻銘不認可胡適這位新文化的帶頭人與其課程。

What about replacing 與其 with 及其?

3b. 辜鴻銘不認可胡適這位新文化的帶頭人及其課程。

Ludi
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3 Answers3

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與： 和，and;

與其： 和他的， and one's;

及其： 还有他的，and also one's;

Back to your examples:

  1. 從該日起在此居住與唸書。// fine

2a.該研究美國與其政治方法。// wrong as the reason you said

2b. 該研究美國及其政治方法。// fine, [research on America and its methodology of politics].

2c. 我们很乐意为这所房子及其庭院拍照。 // fine, [take pictures for this house and also its courtyard.]

3a. 辜鴻銘不認可胡適這位新文化的帶頭人與其課程。// wrong, the same reason as 2a

3b. 辜鴻銘不認可胡適這位新文化的帶頭人及其課程。// fine, [disagree/disapprove the leader of ... and also his courses.]

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dan
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  • So it seems 及其 can be applied much broadly! So basically 與其 is only for cases like 黃大人與其太太？ – Ludi Oct 20 '18 at 08:53
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    @Ludi, I think so. 與其 is used less than 及其 from my experience. Maybe, it's a different case for people from other regions. For 黃某人與其太太, we usually just say: 黃某人和他的太太. – dan Oct 20 '18 at 08:58
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    與其 http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/dictionary/words/1885/ has other meaning in different context, when it's placement is different : rather than... / 與其 A 不如 B (rather than A, better to B) – Tang Ho Oct 20 '18 at 10:46
  • yes, "與其" should be translated as "rather than" – 水巷孑蠻 Oct 20 '18 at 13:16
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"與其" ought to be translated as "rather than".

this term was used since classical chinese times, together with "不如", "不若", "寧" or "寧可". it's usage in modern vernacular Chinese should be similar.

i don't think that "與其" means "and it's / one's".

http://dict.revised.moe.edu.tw/cgi-bin/cbdic/gsweb.cgi?o=dcbdic&searchid=Z00000163825

about some of your sentences:

從該日起在此居住與唸書

自該日起在此留學

"留學" - 居留 & 學習

該研究美國及其政治方法

"政治方法", imo, is odd, i would prefer "政制" or "政治制度" (political system)

btw, "該研究" is also odd, does it mean "such research"?

辜鴻銘不認可胡適這位新文化的帶頭人及其課程

辜鴻銘不認可胡適這位新文化魁首及其課程

http://dict.revised.moe.edu.tw/cgi-bin/cbdic/gsweb.cgi?ccd=RvYdcM&o=e0&sec=sec1&op=v&view=1-1

i hate "的".

水巷孑蠻
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  • Many thanks! 該 was supposed to mean 應該。I cut out a lot of characters, so that I can write the entire thing in under 5 minutes. The teachers sentence was: 胡適說，中國什麼都沒有西方好，所以中國一定不可以再這樣了。要學習美國，中國必須用美國政治的辦法，因為，美國政治的辦法最好！My attempt of a summary in written Chinese was: 他認為中國各方面都不如美國，該研究美國及其政治方法。 – Ludi Oct 20 '18 at 13:30
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    @ludi, i would try something like: 胡適認為中國比不上美國．應向其學習．研究其政制 :) – 水巷孑蠻 Oct 20 '18 at 13:40
  • You are wrong about 与其. 与其 not only can mean "rather than", but also "and one's". For example, 李叔同与其妻子的爱情故事。There are lots of examples about it if you make a quick search on the web. I just mention this meaning in my answer because this is pertinent to OP's example. The meaning of "rather than" could just be an FYI. Its not something OP intended to ask at all. – dan Oct 20 '18 at 14:56
  • @dan, well, the 國語辭典 did not mention the meaning of "and one's" :) – 水巷孑蠻 Oct 20 '18 at 15:30
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    I don't think dictionaries will list a meaning like and one's, because that usage is just splitting「與」(and) and「其」(third person pronoun) up into separate words. – dROOOze Oct 20 '18 at 15:35
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    my reasoning: "與其" is a term survived for several thousands of years. i think that it's usage do not change, between classical chinese, literary chinese and vernacular Chinese. so, i only accepted it's meaning as "rather than". using it as "and one's" is, well, very odd, imo. – 水巷孑蠻 Oct 20 '18 at 15:40
  • @水巷孑蠻 Like drooze said, it should actually be comprehended separately. – dan Oct 20 '18 at 15:40
  • @水巷孑蠻 not sure if you are familiar with the phrases like 与其相似, 与其相仿 and etc. – dan Oct 20 '18 at 23:18
  • Also see this 与其对比: https://m.baidu.com/sf_baijiahao/s?id=1612936785740686370&wfr=spider&for=pc – dan Oct 20 '18 at 23:36
  • baidu ??? well, 漢典: http://www.zdic.net/c/e/e/21494.htm　漢語網: http://www.chinesewords.org/dict/6840-424.html　wiktionary: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/與其 – 水巷孑蠻 Oct 21 '18 at 01:49
  • well, i believed in the notion that "when in doubt, consult the dictionary; learn from it". – 水巷孑蠻 Oct 21 '18 at 01:54
  • @水巷孑蠻 well, lots of things not yet ready in dictionairies, but people use them frequently. Anyway, just agree to disagree. – dan Oct 21 '18 at 04:34
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"與" is and, but it's restricted to same type of things
concept A 與 conept B
= dogs and cats

"與其" is about same type of things and its relationship
person A 與其 (person B's relationship)
= I and my friend...

"及其" is about things and its ownership
Concept A 及其 things owned by concept A
I and my course...

wada
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