nirodha vs nibbana?

Question

I came across this excellent discussion of nirodha recently:
What is Nirodha?

wherein nirodha was defined to be "the cessation of suffering" i.e. "the third noble truth".

I tend to use the word "nibbana" to represent this phenomenon, so I am a little bit confused about the need for 2 different terms here.

If one were to set aside the concept of physical rebirth after death, would any difference between the concepts of "nirodha" and "nibbana" remain?

If so, what is the nature of this difference?

score 2 · Answer 1 · answered Mar 03 '21 at 20:21

2

Nirodha is a process, namely, the cessation of defilements & suffering (caused by insight).

Nibbana is the pre-existing element of peace that is experienced when cessation occurs.

Its like opening a window to experience a cool breeze. Nirodha is opening the window. Nibbana is the cool breeze.

answered Mar 03 '21 at 20:21

Dhamma Dhatu

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This is a fantastic answer. A very effective metaphor. – Alex Ryan Mar 03 '21 at 23:17

score 1 · Answer 2 · 2021-03-03T23:26:40.613

1

Patisambhidamagga, Nibbana-dhatu:

"There are two types of relinquishment through cessation: relinquishment as giving up, and relinquishment as entering into. It gives up defilements and aggregates, thus it is relinquishment as giving up; cognizance enters cessation which is the nibbana principle thus it is relinquishment as entering into. These are the two kinds of relinquishment through cessation."

Nirodhavasena dve vossaggaa: pariccaagavossaggo ca, pakkhandanavossaggo ca. Kilesa ca khandhe ca pariccajatiiti, pariccaagavossaggo; nirodhanibbaanadhaatuyaa cittam pakkhandatiiti. Pakkhandanavossaggo nirodhavasena ime dve vossaggaa.

This, bhikkhu, is a designation for the element of Nibbāna: the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion. The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way. https://suttacentral.net/sn45.7/en/bodhi

we enter upon and abide in the cessation of perception and feeling. And our taints are destroyed by our seeing with wisdom. https://suttacentral.net/mn31/en/bodhi

"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, to what does his mind lean, to what does it tend, to what does it incline?"

"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, his mind leans to seclusion, tends to seclusion, inclines to seclusion." https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn41/sn41.006.than.html#fn-4

According to the commentary, "seclusion" here stands for Nibbana.

edited Mar 03 '21 at 23:26

answered Mar 03 '21 at 23:15

1/ Fascinating. I will try to explain in my own words how this integrates into my current understanding. My intuition is that @Dhammadhatu’s answer (1) nirodha is the process of cessation and (3) nibbana is the state resulting from the application of that process is still true but your answer adds details of the process itself including (1) discernment between the 2 types of relinquishment through cessation and (2) how the mind is inclined to seclusion after sensation and (3) this “inclination towards cessation” is also a meaning of the term “nibbana”. – Alex Ryan Mar 04 '21 at 00:33
2/ So nibbana is both (1) the state itself and (2) the inclination of the mind towards this state. Did I understand your meaning correctly? – Alex Ryan Mar 04 '21 at 00:34
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Me and DD are in total disagreement as to what these things mean. I think he is the most confused person on these boards and he probably thinks of me likewise. – Mar 04 '21 at 00:38
3/ Deeper integration w.r.t. “seclusion” = nibbana: My intuition is that when “condition1“ (the view that happiness depends upon the satiation of the desire for a particular sensory experience) aka “the hindrance of sense-desire” meets with “condition 2” (undesired circumstance), these 2 conditions “cause” the “first arrow in the heart” of pain (aka “condition 3”). – Alex Ryan Mar 04 '21 at 00:41
4/ Continuing to cling to the attachment to the sense-desire in the presence of pain gives rise to condition 4 (the thought “I will never be happy”) i.e. “the hindrance of doubt”. (sense-desire + contact = pain) (sense-desire + pain = doubt) – Alex Ryan Mar 04 '21 at 00:41
5/ Continuing to cling to this wrong view in the presence of pain and doubt, Mara reaches across the barrier between feeling and thinking to seize control of the narrative, and uses it to transform doubt into restlessness, panic, despair, etc. Stop. My understanding is that the purpose of the first jhana is to give rise to the “happiness of seclusion”. i.e. The choice to go to war with Mara by invoking the jhanas may start with an incantation like “May I experience the happiness of seclusion from doubt.” – Alex Ryan Mar 04 '21 at 00:41
6/ Continuing onwards through the jhanas to kill the remainder of the hindrances culminating in extinguishing attachment to the sense-desire and then further to renounce conceit itself leads to the island of nibbana. – Alex Ryan Mar 04 '21 at 00:42
7/ In conclusion, because (1) the choice is made to go to war with Mara by invoking the desire for seclusion from doubt is made and (2) this choice is rewarded by (A) the bliss of the 4th jhana, (B) the extinguishment of attachment to the sense-desire, and (C) the extinguishment of conceit and (3) because the mind is so strongly rewarded for the choice invoke seclusion from doubt it is strongly inclined to do so again in the future. Does this integration sound correct? – Alex Ryan Mar 04 '21 at 00:42
I will have set your questions aside. You might want to incorporate at least two more terms "Saupādisesā ca nibbānadhātu" and "anupādisesā ca nibbānadhātu" The Nibbana-element with fuel/residue remaining, & the Nibbana-element with no fuel/residue remaining. https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.2.028-049.than.html#iti-044 – Mar 04 '21 at 01:03

score 1 · Answer 3 · answered Mar 04 '21 at 01:58

I have not learnt the meaning of Niroddha from the Suttas but I think Niroddha is a kind of tool or process which when employed by someone prevents the effect of a cause from coming into existence... for example if you wear a fire proof glove then you can put your hands into the fire and you will not be affected. Another interesting example would be of a chameleon. It changes color whenever it perceives a threat or seeks food. This way inspite of being present among the enemies it survives. By employing Niroddha Nirvana is achieved.

nirodha vs nibbana?

3 Answers3