Seeking physical and online resources; books; articles; etc. concerning the history, public (and private) images and (current) location of the root text sources comprising the Pali Cannon
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1What for? For which purpose? ?? – Samana Johann Nov 16 '18 at 14:48
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1To give transparency to the validity of the publicly available version of the Pali Cannon and for the well-being of all. – vimutti Nov 16 '18 at 15:28
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1Nobody, including Sujato & Brahmali, knows anything real about the history of the texts. Dhamma is an experiential tradition. The Dhamma refuge is: " this Dhamma which is to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the observant for themselves." – Dhamma Dhatu Nov 20 '18 at 04:46
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You may like some other facts not from the main stream to decide how to assert the Pali Canon. The Chinese Vinayas, five of them preserved from the earliest 18-Buddhist Schools, mentioned writing sutras were readily available and existed during Buddha's time. Oral recitation is just the case for Pali Canon, due to their lack of writing means or not civilized as the mainland India at that time? – Mishu 米殊 Nov 20 '18 at 06:43
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@Mishu米殊 Do you know what the earliest surviving Chinese manuscripts are, how complete they are, and what medium[s] they're written on? I think that writing existed -- but that paper, also palm leaves, parchment, etc., aren't durable. Small quantities of writing may survive e.g. if it's inscribed on stone, or clay, or metal (sometimes gold leaf). But the Tripitaka is about 15,000 pages of modern small print. – ChrisW Nov 20 '18 at 08:54
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@Mishu米殊 The way the Pali Canon was transmitted by oral tradition, is consistent with the way the Vedas was transmitted for thousands of years. The composition is in a poetic form, using mnemonic formulae for memorization and recitation. The recitation would have also served a ritualistic or ceremonial purpose. Even the tradition says that in the First Buddhist Council, Ananda and Upali recited the suttas and the vinaya. Even if they did not recite in Pali, they would have recited in a Prakrit dialect that's very similar to Pali. – ruben2020 Nov 20 '18 at 09:40
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I agree with you, archaeological evident depends on the mercy of time, @ChrisW. The point here is, there are double standards employed by certain scholars who wanted to promote their views. They libel the Mahayana Sutras' authenticity one factor is no physical text existed that can carbon-dated to 500BCE, the Buddha's time, though the physical Mahayana text did exist which dated 75CE v.s. The Pali Canon dated 1600CE. Meanwhile the Ashoka Edicts dated 250BCE has the Mahayana text inscribed. But they said the Mahayana is not authentic Buddhavacana only the Pali Canon is... – Mishu 米殊 Nov 20 '18 at 12:41
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... they teach the Theravadins to libel the Mahayana - the major part of the Buddhavacana. You know well simply reading the posts in this forum. I knew you haven't engaged in it, if any affliction that's totally accidental since you can only rely on the English or French media. If you have bit of confidence on the Buddha's word, not merely a scholastic or intellectual exercise, you should know that libeling the authentic Buddhavacana is very undesirable to one's merit (good fortune) for Dharma. About the Chinese text, Fangshan Stone Tripitaka is dated to 600CE, probably you knew about it. – Mishu 米殊 Nov 20 '18 at 12:56
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@ruben2020 Reciting Sutras of course is a practice in the monastery at Buddha's, even today in Chinese Mahayana monastery they recite the Heart Sutra and Diamond Sutra. My point is, in the vinaya texts, not just one, at least 3 out of 5 survived in the Chinese Tripitaka, incl. the earliest school the Mahasamghika, reported textual sutras existed at Buddha's time. Why your tradition has to insist only oral recitation can transmit the Buddha's words? When Kindle is available, doesn't the printed book also? – Mishu 米殊 Nov 20 '18 at 13:10
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I can guarantee you @ruben2020, with my personal honour, that Pali is an artificial language invented based on the Sanskrit, the first "Pali Canon" was written in Sinhalese letters, until Buddhaghosa copied them into the Pali Canon with the Pali script. Then the Sinhalese text was burnt - the mythology of the Deva burnt it to test Buddhaghosa. That is the real story. – Mishu 米殊 Nov 20 '18 at 13:12
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I don't dislike Pali Canon nor question its authenticity, I only dislike it claimed its the totality of Buddha's words, which is false; and I dislike it said the Buddhavacana only transmitted through their oral recitation, which is false again. We base on evidence to discern the truth that's beneficial for Dharma cultivation, not base on propaganda, authority, scholar or status - Bhikkhu. When you write those posts to say the Buddha said OK for eating meat, and engaged in selling meat etc., please specific your view is based on the Theravadin teaching, that I would much appreciate @ruben2020 – Mishu 米殊 Nov 20 '18 at 13:20
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2@Mishu米殊 BTW, meat trading business is against Right Livelihood. It is true that Theravadins may not accept Diamond or Lotus Sutras as Buddhavacana, but I don't see why you need the acceptance or approval of Theravadins, for your practice. Similarly, I think Tibetan Buddhists don't need to care if some of their teachings or practices are not accepted by Chinese Buddhists or Theravadins. To be honest, I've tried to understand and link Mahayana emptiness to Theravada emptiness in this question, so I do appreciate the Mahayana teachings. – ruben2020 Nov 20 '18 at 16:00
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2@Mishu米殊 I'm grateful that on this site I'm able to get some introduction to the Pali canon, and to Mahayana doctrine (as well as various people's insights about how to interpret and summarise them). For example, thank you for your posting (recently) an answer about the Diamond Sutra, including your recommended translation of it. Also one of the first answers I researched (this one) involved a study of the agamas alongside a Pali sutta. Of course I have also been glad to find that at least the Pali is so accessible, via English translations etc. – ChrisW Nov 20 '18 at 16:53
2 Answers
Please read the book "The Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts" (hard copy can purchased here) by Bhikkhu Sujato and Bhikkhu Brahmali.
The abstract states:
This work articulates and defends a single thesis: that the Early Buddhist Texts originated in the lifetime of the Buddha or a little later, because they were, in the main, spoken by the Buddha and his contemporary disciples. This is the most simple, natural, and reasonable explanation for the evidence.
Our argument covers two main areas:
1. The grounds for distinguishing the Early Buddhist Texts (EBTs) from later Buddhist literature;
2. The evidence that the EBTs stem from close to the Buddha’s lifetime, and that they were generally spoken by the historical Buddha.Most academic scholars of Early Buddhism cautiously affirm that it is possible that the EBTs contain some authentic sayings of the Buddha. We contend that this drastically understates the evidence. A sympathetic assessment of relevant evidence shows that it is very likely that the bulk of the sayings in the EBTs that are attributed to the Buddha were actually spoken by him. It is very unlikely that most of these sayings are inauthentic.
Also, "A History of Mindfulness" (and here) by Bhikkhu Sujato (as suggested by Andrei Volkov).
Another good source is "History of the Buddhist Canon" by Daniel Veidlinger, who teaches Comparative Religion at the California State University.
Also: "On the Very Idea of the Pali Canon" by Steven Collins.
This chapter maybe interesting to you: "Recent Discoveries of Early Buddhist Manuscripts: And Their Implications for the History of Buddhist Texts and Canons" by Richard Salomon.
For a scholarly paper on early manuscripts, see "The Senior Manuscripts: Another Collection of Gandharan Buddhist Scrolls" by Richard Salomon. But this paper discusses only one set of manuscripts that was discovered.
Perhaps, it should be made clear that the oral tradition of the Pali Canon is much more important than the written version. Please see "Pali Oral Literature" by L.S. Cousins. I quote below:
Early Buddhist literature is an oral literature. Such a literature is not without its own characteristic features. A widespread use of mnemonic formulae is one of the most typical of these. I would refer to the considerable body of research on the nature of oral epic poetry. In such poetry the formulae are used both as an aid to actual performance and to maintain the continuity and form of the epic tradition.
Both these features are certainly present in the sutta literature. In the first place many suttas are clearly designed for chanting. We should assume that, then as now, their chanting would produce a great deal of religious emotion - the pamojja and piti-somanassa of the texts. The difference of course would be that the language of the suttas would still be directly comprehensible to the hearers. In these circumstances suttas would be chanted by individual monks both for edification and for enjoyment. We may compare the recitations attributed to Ananda and Upali in accounts of the First Council. In practice they would have to be tailored to the needs of the particular situation ~ shortened or lengthened as required. An experienced chanter would be able to string together many different traditional episodes and teachings so as to form a coherent, profound and moving composition.
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1Thanks. Before diving into the recommendations: 1) Is the physical medium of the original Pali texts mentioned (e.g. India ink on papyrus)? 2) Are there references to scientific reports of the Pali source texts being carbon dated to better determine age? 3) Are current methods of preserving the physicality of the original Pali source texts addressed? 4) Are the physical locations of the above mentioned texts given? – vimutti Nov 18 '18 at 13:01
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1@vimutti Chapter 3 of "The Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts" talks about both oral and textual transmission, and provides references to other scholarly works. Please see the references for section 3.6. – ruben2020 Nov 19 '18 at 15:39
The oldest extant complete Pāli Canon in manuscript form is from 1500 AD, 2000 years after the Buddha, but that this collection preserves older text is well-known, because of the amount of parallels it has with older literature, such as that preserved in China.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=8jPYUCy-GxQC&pg=PA4&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
There used to be a very old Pāli Tipiṭaka housed at Aluvihare Rock Temple in Sri Lanka, but it was destroyed during the Rebellion of 1848.
More on the poor state of preservation of Pāli manuscripts (largely due to war, poverty, and climate) here: http://www.academia.edu/6508616/Pali_Manuscripts_of_Sri_Lanka
Also in the above article you will find recounted the tragic destruction of most ancient Sri Lankan manuscripts, which had to be reconstructed with Burmese and Thai manuscripts.
Compare this with the Sarvāstivāda Saṃyuktāgama, Lesser Sarvāstivāda Saṃyuktāgama, Dharmaguptaka Dīrghāgama, & related vinaya texts from the 팔만 대장경 (Palman Daejanggyeong, or the “Goryeo/Koreana Tripiṭaka”), which is from the 1200s. That is the oldest complete collection of EBTs currently extant. These texts were translated in China from an unknown Prākrit language (many speculate Gāndhārī) between 200 & 400 AD.
The Koreana Tripiṭaka is housed at Haeinsa Temple in Gayasan National Park, South Gyeongsang Province, South Korea.
Document collections older than that are highly eroded and fragmentary in nature, here is a link on the numerous śrāvakayāna & bodhisattvayāna Gāndhārī fragments that date from between 100 BC and 100 AD, with some from as late as 900 AD: http://www.historyofinformation.com/expanded.php?id=149
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2Great answer! If those scholars wanted to argue the authenticity of a tradition by the dating of the Sutra that could be found and verified with physical existence at this very moment, the Pali Canon will queue at the very back - the end of the line ;). Even the Diamond Sutra fragment, the oldest printed book, dated 11 May 868CE, is older than the Pali Canon. – Mishu 米殊 Nov 20 '18 at 06:34
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1The problem is that the OP wanted a "complete" Pāli Canon. The canon is simply too large. We have many fragments and pieces from it dating back to as early as the Gāndhārī fragments, which actually include whole sūtras, like the Rhinoceros Sūtra, vinaya texts, etc. But the oldest "complete" one is in the Koreana Tripiṭaka from the 1200s, the oldest complete canon in Pāli is from the 1600s at the very earliest, with some attestation in the 1500s. The oldest documents ever discovered in Pāli are from 800 AD at the earliest. – Caoimhghin Nov 20 '18 at 06:39
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You should see the OP is looking for evident to authenticate the Pali Canon, he is not really looking for the source to study. And the Rhinoceros Sutra and other Gandhari fragments are not written in Pali, they are written in Kathorithi or Prakrit, which is the Chinese Canon based on to translate. Pali is an invented script to write the Sinhalese letters loaned so-called "Pali Canon", by Buddhaghosa. And then the Sinhalese lettered "Pali Canon" was burnt, that's why they now existed collection is the 2nd version... – Mishu 米殊 Nov 20 '18 at 06:48
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... Why they have to invent Pali? Because over time, the oral recitation differ from the Sanskrit, they can't determine and revert back from the Sinhalese loaned text to exact the Sanskrit, therefore they have to invent a new script to hold the pronunciation. That's why Pali has many derived words from Sanskrit, when tracing back the root of the word, inevitable they have to go back to the Sanskrit word to get the root meaning... – Mishu 米殊 Nov 20 '18 at 06:51
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... The problem is, the Ceylon school the Bhantes are not telling the fact as fact, they mythologize everything and trying to lead people to believe they are originally from the Buddha - which is true even they don't have the exact words after long history of recitation and adaptation; but the wrong they did is, trying to lead people they have the complete teaching of the Buddha by oral recitation (IMPOSSIBLE!). They don't admit they just have part of the teaching but reverse to attack other lineage libeling their Sutras not authentic, in order to justify their small portion of suttas... – Mishu 米殊 Nov 20 '18 at 06:54
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1They didn't invented Pāli. Pāli is a partially Sanskritized dialect of Magadhī Prākrit. When dealing with Sanskrit and Prākrits, we have to differentiate between classical Sanskrit and Vedic Sanskrit. Classical Sanskrit is a newer language than Pāli, but it is based on the older Vedic Sanskrit. All of the Prākrits come from dialect clusters that centre around Vedic Sanskrit. Buddhist Sanskrit scriptures are Sanskritized from Prākrits. We Buddhists even have our own dialect of Sanskrit because of the distinctive way we chose to Sanskritize, which didn't always match the official standard. – Caoimhghin Nov 20 '18 at 06:55
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... Now, it seems their scheme, aided by the Western scholars, are taking the force. If you read wikipedia, or general media, almost all words, terms, etymologies of Buddhism are replaced by the Pali words - which are artificial. And the true Dharma is going to ruin in this way. – Mishu 米殊 Nov 20 '18 at 06:56
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1Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote: "Scholars regard this language (Pali) as a hybrid showing features of several Prakrit dialects used around the third century BCE, subjected to a partial process of Sanskritization. While the language is not identical to what Buddha himself would have spoken, it belongs to the same broad language family as those he might have used and originates from the same conceptual matrix. This language thus reflects the thought-world that the Buddha inherited from the wider Indian culture into which he was born, so that its words capture the subtle nuances of that thought-world." – ruben2020 Nov 20 '18 at 07:00
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"They didn't invented Pāli." That is wrong. Pali didn't exist before the Pali Canon, see my links on the OP's, read about the facts related to it. And the Ashoka Eddicts doesn't have Pali on it. It is not a natural language spoken by people of ancient or modern. It just is invented to write the Pali Canon. Other than Pali Canon, you can't find this language exist in any literature. If Pali was used, it was after the time of Pali Canon existed. Of course if an artificial language is invented, it doesn't need to be invented like in the novel Lord of Rings, it is based on Sanskrit to invent Pali – Mishu 米殊 Nov 20 '18 at 07:01
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1Pāli certainly existed before the canon being written down, because the canon was oral before it was written down. On terms of comparing the language of the Aśokan Edicts, we can do that here: – Caoimhghin Nov 20 '18 at 07:03
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Magadhī Prākrit: savata vijitamsi devānanpiyasa piyadasino lāño evamapāpavantesu yathā coḍā pāḍā satiyaputo ketalaputo ā tanbapanī antiyake nāma yona lāja ye vā pi tasa antiyakasa śamino lājāne savata devānanpiyasa piyadasuno lāño dive cikiccā katā manusa cikiccā ca pasu cikiccā ca osadhāni ca yani manusopagāni ca pasuopogānāni ca yata yata nāsti savata pālāpitāni ca lopāpitāni ca mūlāni ca phalāni ca yata yata nāsti savata holapitāni ca lopāpitāni ca ma gesu udapanāni ca khānāpitāni lukhāni ca lopapitāni pati bhogāya pasu manusānam – Caoimhghin Nov 20 '18 at 07:03
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Partial Pāli reconstruction: "sabbattha vijitamhi devanampiyassa piyadassino rañño evaṁ apāpantesu yathā coḷā pāḍa(?) saccaputto ketalaputto (ā?) tambapaṇṇi antiyake nāma yonā …" <--- this is Ven Sujāto's reconstruction, but you can have any other scholar of Middle Indic look at it and they will produce the same conclusions. – Caoimhghin Nov 20 '18 at 07:03
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1"If Pali was used, it was after the time of Pali Canon existed. Of course if an artificial language is invented, it doesn't need to be invented like in the novel Lord of Rings, it is based on Sanskrit to invent Pali" <--- I am not totally sure what you mean here, but yes, I think most scholars agree that Pāli has always been a ritualistic and ecclesiastic language, and has never been spoken as a vernacular by anyone. The same can be said of Buddhist Sanskrit, though. – Caoimhghin Nov 20 '18 at 07:06
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This is my last response to you, Caoimhghin. I think you are smart and intelligent, perhaps I didn't say it clear, the Pali script is not craved on the Ashoka Edicts, ok? I think the Ashoka Edicts can be translated to English, German, Dutch... etc. too, not needed to be done by the V. Subjato, but any scholar well versed in Sanskrit, or the ancient text engraved on the pillars. Do you get what I mean? I'm sure those sound minds without bias understood very well what I said here. Judge with your own intelligence, don't defile and humiliate your own intellectual gift – Mishu 米殊 Nov 20 '18 at 07:09
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1You are right, there is no Pali script on those pillars, because it is written in Brahmi script. If you look at the two texts side-by-each, the Magadhī Prākrit and Ven Sujāto's Pāli-ized version, you can see how extremely close Pāli is to Magadhī Prākrit. Pāli is more Sanskritized, but that is about it. Ven Sujāto was not "translating" the Magadhī Prākrit into anything, he was demonstrating the close relations between these two Middle Indic Prākrits. – Caoimhghin Nov 20 '18 at 07:13
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1This is a useful paper: "The Origin of Pāli and its Position among the Indo-European Languages" (1988) by K. R. Norman – ruben2020 Nov 20 '18 at 10:06
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Do all the older fragments and pieces of the Pali cannon match the earliest known copies of the complete Pali cannon? – vimutti Nov 21 '18 at 02:29
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Could Pali also have been invented as 1) a special language concocted and agreed upon to preserve the Buddha’s teachings and words in an unique “official” language? Or 2) a later agreed upon language for oral transmissions to honor the Buddha’s teachings after his death? Or 3) a new language created by the Buddha (specifically for emphasizing and denoting what had been realized at the foot of the bodhi tree)? – vimutti Nov 21 '18 at 03:05
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If not already published, a work about all known original (or close to original) Pali cannon text fragments — including photos of the fragments; locations; and transcribing the (partial) Pali text fragments into easily readable modern Pali typeface — seems a most needful research project – vimutti Nov 28 '18 at 14:30