why can't the spirtual experience explained from logic

Question

I have heard that when a meditators do a very deep meditation and experiences supernatural phonomenon that experience can't be expressed with words and logic. What does that mean. I remember Albert Einstin said: if a person can't explain something he hasn't understood it, doesn't this thing also apply to the spirtual experience. If the yogi or person who has experience rebirth and multiverse can't explain it properly, and is saying just based on his vision acquired though deep meditation like seeing past lives, future, past, travelling to other infinite universe. Than although they are all actually happening and real wouldn't their be void or incompletness in his/her knowledge of such things? How can we consider them as perfect truth?

And also, if past, future and present are just illusion than why do we feel it? And why can't people expalain scientifically all the supernatural experiece they gain from deep meditation. Are other multiverse made of possible past and possible future? What are similaritys between Schrodingers cat theory and multiverse accordig to spirtual path? Although i know little bit i want to understand more form here. I have heard that conciousness pops up like an electron i.e conciousness is not a continious phenomenon from a buddhist monk(i forgot his name and video), like a subatomic partical which dissaperas and appera in another place, what does this mean?

Answer 1

(See this answer and this answer for explanation some of the terminology of the non english terms below)

The vocabulary and language is conditioned by common experiences of people. When suddenly a new experience comes about there will be no words or terms (nama pannatti) to describe it or language or medium to explain it (nirutti). You cannot create a vocabulary to communicate this experience to someone who has not experienced it, i.e., it is hard to express its meaning (abhilapa). Hence meditative experiences cannot be put into words, or make know (pannapiyatta or atthapannatti).

Some of the meditative states part of the mind's operations stop. Hence logic breaks down. In the 1st Jhana Thinking and Pondering (vitakka & vicara) stops. When you attain Nirvana so does Perception (sañña). At this stage all metal operations stop. This again is another reason it cannot be described. Since at these levels, conventional logic also breaks down you cannot use this to deduce of infer anything about it.

Also logic and reasoning is concepts (pannatti) or metal models of what we think is out there. This does not represent reality. Since concept and reality do not mix you cannot use concepts to describe accurately what reality is. Since only a few has experienced reality as it is there no vocabulary or language that describes the concepts.

Generally our current model of the universe is based on:

• concept of time: (kala pannatti)
• spatial dimensions concept: (disa pannatti), sapce: (akasa pannatti)
• and generally a lot of theorising, maths and logic which are concepts

These are not ultimate realities themselves, hence cannot not related to meditative experiences, which deal with ultimate realities. They generally do not mix well like oil and water. This does not mean concepts do not exist, but they are not ultimate realities which are free from delusion. Conceptual realities are always with delusion or tainted by ignorance of the 3 characteristics. So a concept which is seam solid is not necessarily with no reality in it, but it does not reality well, which in turn leads to attachment or aversion which being about misery. Dealing with realities which are ultimate, misery does not arise as there is no disparity between reality and what is known or experienced hence will not develop false expectations, when you reach the level you can experience the relevant ultimate realities.

In Buddhism atomic units are explained as Kalapas which can be experienced through meditation. The experience realities might differ from what modern science says.

Answer 2

I think you're misunderstanding 'illusion' with respect to past and future. The only thing which really exists is the here and now (think about it). Past and future don't exist in this way, although it seems to us sometimes that they do, especially when the mind is telling itself stories. Past and future only exist intellectually, not really like the present does.

This doesn't mean that past and future are delusions, just that they're not real like the present. And it's important sometimes for us to be able to think about the past and future in order to live our lives. If you couldn't imagine the future you wouldn't think to put on coat when you left home on a rainy day :)

But Buddhism stresses that they're not real in order to encourage us to live in and relate to what is, here and now, not what was or what might be.

Answer 3

why can't the spirtual experience explained from logic

I'll try to guess three analogies.

One is that experience can be explained, but that hearing an explanation isn't the same as experiencing. For example if I go outside then I see (and thus I experience) a lot of things there. I could describe those to you but that's not the same as your seeing (experiencing) them yourself.

Secondly, experience has a partly-emotional component or basis. For example, take a baby and separate it from its mother and father, and it starts to cry. You might "explain" to the baby that there's no need to cry and that the world is benevolent, but the baby cannot learn from your explanation, and can only learn from its own experience. Something similar (i.e. you'll find that your explanation is not effective) might happen if you try to explain something to a dumb animal, to somebody with a psychiatric disability, to somebody who is too busy or has too many preconceptions to listen to you.

Thirdly the mind is a sense-organ for perceiving ideas, in the same way that the eye is a sense-organ for perceiving sights. If the eye is cloudy or troubled then you cannot see properly (or cannot see as clearly as somebody else can). Similarly if the mind is cloudy or troubled then you cannot understand as clearly.

And also, if past, future and present are just illusion than why do we feel it?

I think that when non-Buddhists read about Buddhism they may get the impression that Buddhism teaches that "the world is an illusion" or something like that.

Actually I don't see the word "illusion" used much when I read about Buddhism. Instead I read the word "delusion", which means something which I think is related to "ignorance".

So, if it's true that "past, future and present are just illusion", I'm tempted to assume that's an inaccurate translation of a statement such as "we have ignorant, unwise, unskillful knowledge about and attitudes towards past, future and present".

One of Buddhism's attempts to explain "why do we feel" is the theory of the Twelve Nidānas.

What are similaritys between Schrodingers cat theory and multiverse accordig to spirtual path?

In my own mind I would categorize such thinking as papañca -- i.e. trying to think or talk about a "multiverse" reduces one's ability to see reality-as-it-is.

More specifically "Schrodinger's cat" may have some limited applicability as a theory when talking about quantum mechanics, but it's not appropriate when talking about macroscopic objects. Maybe it's like saying "people are conscious, therefore stars and atoms are conscious too", i.e. untrue/useless.

My impression is that the theories of physics says nothing about morality (good and not-good), about subjective experience (suffering and not-suffering), about recommended behaviour (wise and unwise).

I have heard that conciousness pops up like an electron

I think that consciousness is conditioned by sense-impressions. For example if you see a bull charging at you then you're conscious of that; if you hear music then you're conscious of that; if you step on something sharp then you're conscious of that; but these are all moments of consciousness.

Answer 4

...can't be expressed with words and logic

Because words and logic are the "formats" used by the mind, i.e., Name-Form conditioned. (Name-Form {名色} is the 4th in the 12-Nidāna), it cannot express the Ultimate Truth, that rid of Ignorance {無明} - the 1st of the 12-Nidana. Likewise a daughter cannot give birth to her father (in the same life-time).

Albert E is talking about "understood" in the scope of intellectual mind, but the Ultimate is beyond intellect.

...if past, future and present are just illusion than why do we feel it?...

About Illusion Why a sad novel will make you cry? Even though what you are in contact with merely paper and ink (if you are reading a book). Why you see the wave coming and going, even though the water particles are merely moving up and down, not forth and back; (number of persons holding hands get them up and down will create the same "wave" illusion). Illusion can have real effect, if the mind believes in it. We are seeing many illusions, e.g. our vision is not perfect constructed partly by illusion/imagination, we have blind spot in our vision scientist said that the brain "filled in" the blank, read this in the medical magazine.

You assumed but didn't directly ask if past future present are illusions Yes, time is illusion, so is space. Past and Future definitely can't exist independently on their own, it depends on the Present - when the mind recalled or projected them; the Present doesn't exist as well (!!). I credit Rinpoche Khenpo Tsultrim (慈誠羅珠堪布), he explaint that how a smallest unit of time can never be found, therefore the moment of Present can never be established. What is the smallest unit of time the Present? A second, but it can be divided into half a second, a half second can further be divided half... so on and so forth - infinite. However, if a unit of time can be infinitely divided, then that moment can never be passed thus the next moment can never be born. Infinitely dividable is a mathematically dividable but it is not for our phenomenal world's time. We are tricked by the mind and logic. In our phenomenal world we experience the previous moment and the next moment continuum. However as it can continuously be dividing the smallest unit of the present moment, the present moment cannot be established. If the present moment cannot be established then all the phenomenal world "matters" cannot be established. But we do experience the phenomenal world - Ultimate Truth is beyond the dialect logic and also the Indian Classical four-truth logic.

So, Albert E., no matter how high his IQ scored, can't work on this bit of anomaly :D. So does a yogi or meditator there able to tell you what's going on with him (provided he is authentic and genuine).

What are similaritys between Schrodingers cat theory and multiverse accordig to spirtual path?...

I've not invested much on S.'s Cat and Multiverse and so on I left the rest for those wise-well-learnt.

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(P. S. self gibberish: I cannot understand why so many Buddhist students talking so happily about Anatta the so called not-Self/non-Self, as if Columbus discovering the new continent. It's really a horrible truth to learnt when one realizes that a present moment indeed doesn't exist at all so does a Self doesn't have an abode to take shelter... it simply can't be established! :"'C)