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I'm running a thought experiment to see how many DnD 5e commoners it would take to defeat an Ancient Red Dragon. Use the following constraints for the scenario:

  • For the commoners, use the stats on page 345 of the Monster Manual.
  • For the Ancient Red Dragon, use the stats on page 97 of the Monster Manual.
  • Use average damage per attack (e.g. ([hit chance] * [avg hit damage]) + ([avg crit chance] * [crit damage])). This means that a commoner's club attack against a dragon would be counted as dealing 0.25 damage to the dragon (they only hit on a nat 20, but do 2d4 damage for 5% * 5 = 0.25 damage). A dragon should hit on anything but a nat 1.
  • Assume the dragon's breath weapon recharges every three rounds. Assume all commoners within the area of the breath die immediately.
  • Assume the battle takes place on an infinite, flat plain with no cover. The dragon is not in its lair and does not get lair actions.
  • Assume the dragon stays on the ground for the entire fight. If it uses its Wing Attack, it lands at the end of the flight granted.
  • Ignore the dragon's Frightful Presence.

Given these constraints and assumptions, what is the lowest number of commoners that could defeat an Ancient Red Dragon? What tactics would be best for the commoners to use?

The purpose of this thought experiment is to provide a rough ceiling to the question of "how many commoners would it take to defeat an Ancient Dragon?". It's likely that with preparation, advanced tactics, or use of cover that we could find a way for a significantly lower number of commoners to fight off an Ancient Dragon. However, the number derived from these constraints should provide a good (or at least order-of-magnitude) baseline.

Thomas Markov
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Dacromir
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3 Answers3

18

The constraints are too artificial to help "establish a baseline"

As Thomas points out the dragon has a higher movement rate, and on an infinite plane can always stay a distance from the approaching commoners to fry them with dragon breath.

If you declared that the entire plane is filled with commoners, the dragon might eventually die, because even though there is no critical success on saves and Wing Attack will kill every commoner in a 15' radius, the infinite number of remaining commoners has a speed of 30 feet and can close back in. Even clearing an area with fire breath and moving into it will not create enough space to ensure that none of the commoners can reach it, and the dragon can do so only every 3 rounds.

However, I want to challenge how you frame your question: an Ancient Red Dragon without Frightful Presence is not an Ancient Red Dragon as given in the Monster Manual. That feature is there exactly so mobs of common folk and soldiers will be too terrified to approach the dragon, and taking it away removes an important element of what makes the dragon a dragon.

Likewise, flight and strafing with breath weapon is the preferred and normal way a dragon would deal with a ground-bound army. Disallowing flight is also a highly artificial restraint that effectively removes a key ability of the dragon as printed.

So I think the conditions you have set up do nothing to establish any kind of useful baseline. It’s an artificial puzzle, disconnected from the game and essentially useless other than as a math diversion.

In the game world, no amount of commoners would be able to defeat an ancient red dragon. They would be running away or cower under cover in terror, hoping they will be overlooked and not burned to cinders.

Nobody the Hobgoblin
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The dragon can kite indefinitely.

The ancient red dragon has a 40 foot walking speed, and using the Wing Attack Legendary Action lets it move another 40 feet each round. So it gets 80 feet of movement each round without using its action to Dash. This, combined with the 90 foot range of the dragon’s breath weapon, means the dragon can just stay out of range of any commoner army forever, picking them off with fire breath.

Thomas Markov
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0

Tens of thousands

While I agree with Nobody's conclusion that, restricted to the constraints proposed, this is not a fight between an 'ancient red dragon' and 'commoners' in any meaningful sense. However, I don't think it is 'useless other than as a math diversion', because it illuminates some design features of the combat system. Making an approximate comparison can illustrate things such as the limited ability of CR to understand relative strength in combat. Things like movement speed and having the ability to fly are essential to understanding tactics and likely outcomes, and yet they have no effect on CR. An exercise like this points out some crucial assumptions and differences between editions. In first edition, once you reached a certain AC, you became unhittable since a 20N was not automatically a hit. The fact that in 5e a 20N always hits (but does not necessarily save) means that 'an army of commoners' is a more credible threat, and recognizing that things like proficiency bonus and ability modifiers don't matter in this fight shows how the 20N rule presents its own challenges to bounded accuracy. The exercise also illustrates how the 20N rule incentivizes arming your army of commoners with ranged weapons. To strain a metaphor, historically, once the damage capability of ranged weapons outpaced the protective power of armor, so that high-AC individuals were no longer unhittable, battlefield superiority shifted from high CR individuals (mounted knights) to an army of commoners with ranged weapons (longbowmen and eventually musketeers).

Back of the envelope calculations

Assume an infinite plane with an infinite number of commoners, regularly spaced at one per each 5 foot hex.

Big simplifying assumption - The dragon controls 19 hexes. In reality, when playing on a grid, a huge creature is supposed to control 7 hexes and a gargantuan one 12 (DMG 249). The huge creature is a central hex surrounded by a single ring of six hexes, but the 'footprint' of a gargantuan creature is not an easy shape to describe. I made the dragon a single hex surrounded by two rings of hexes (6 and 12, for a total of 19) in order to visualize everything as concentric rings of hexes, which kept the math far easier.

Assume the dragon kills about 144 commoners each round. Its Wing Attack will automatically kill any commoners in its area of effect (they can't make the DC25 save, and even the minimum damage is more than their hp). If the dragon is 'three rings' of hexes, then everyone within 15' is the commoners in rings four (18), five (24), and six (36), for a total of 78 commoners in the area of effect. This is its best attack. Add to that its breath weapon - all commoners in the area automatically die, as above. A 90' cone (affects 1 hex in the first rank + 2 + 3...19) will kill 190 commoners, but breathing every third round means an average of 63 per round. We can add to that two-thirds of a bite, four-thirds of a claw, and (depending on your assumptions about initiative) two-thirds of a tail. OP would like the dragon to miss on a 1N, but the numbers it can kill with the melee attacks are so small compared to the area effects that we needn't bother. We'll round it to 3 and say that 78 + 63 + 3 = about 144 commoners killed per round.

Any commoner within 60 feet can attack without moving - A commoner can throw its club up to 60 feet as an improvised weapon. How many commoners are within 60 feet? Keeping within our concentric rings, the first, second, and third rings of hexes are the dragon itself. Ring four is adjacent to the dragon; 18 commoners can attack the dragon in melee. Ring five is 5' from the dragon; rings five, six (10'), seven (15'), and eight (20') can make short-ranged attacks, for a total of 132 thrown clubs. Rings nine (25') through twenty (60') can also make ranged attacks, but at disadvantage from long range, so that's another 962 clubs thrown with disadvantage.

All told, that's (18 + 132 + 962) = 1112 commoners who can attack the dragon, each round, without even moving. Of course, the dragon will be 'opening a space' for itself as it kills commoners. Given that it will be killing only 144 of these 1112 commoners, evenly distributed that is all the commoners in rings five through eight plus a few more, and that is only twenty feet from the dragon. Since the commoners have a move of 30', they can fill in the gaps made by the dragon without losing any attacks, and thus they can fill any space faster than it can kill them.

Consider, however, OP's constraint that the dragon cannot use its Frightful Presence. This is key to even running this analysis. The range of this feature is 120', meaning that by taking its action every turn the dragon could keep all commoners at 120 feet or further (they cannot make a DC21 Wisdom save). Since the commoners have to start their turn at 90 feet or closer to attack (30 feet move plus a 60 foot ranged thrown club), simply by re-using this ability the dragon can hold off the commoners indefinitely. A canny dragon, since it can choose who the presence affects, could alternate between frightful presence and wing attacks to kill commoners indefinitely.

FIRST CONCLUSION: Without frightful presence, since the dragon cannot kill the commoners as fast as they can approach it, it cannot hold them off indefinitely. It will eventually be killed; it is just a question of how long it can continue to kill commoners, and how many it will take out before it dies.

Knowing this, we can set some rough bounds on how long this might take. On the low end, suppose the dragon was subjected to the aforementioned 1112 attacks each round. With its AC22, the dragon is only going to be hit on a 20N, which is convenient. The 150 melee and close-range attacks have an expected damage of (1/20)(5)(150) = 37.5 per round, while the 962 long-range attacks with disadvantage have an expected damage of (1/400)(5)(962) = 12.025 per round, for a total of 49.525. With 546 hp, we can expect our dragon to go about 11 rounds against a plane filled with commoners.

At the high end, suppose there is an empty space in a circle with a radius 75 feet across and the dragon in the center. Only the outermost (20th) ring and beyond is filled with commoners, such that the dragon is receiving only 114 attacks, all of thrown clubs at disadvantage, and the commoners are not approaching any closer. In that case the expected damage is (1/400)(5)(114) = 1.425 per round, and the combat will last about 383 rounds.

If we ran this as a tactical battle on a map, with the dragon attempting to use its movement and area attacks to continually open a space and then stay as far from the commoner attacks as it could, and the commoners continually attempting to move closer to the dragon and attack, the results would have to be somewhere between our two bounds, somewhere between a plane with every space filled by commoners and one in which all commoners remained at 60 feet distant from the dragon. Thus, we can expect an actual tactical combat to last somewhere between 11 and 383 rounds. Given that our dragon will kill 144 commoners each round of combat, we can expect it to have killed between c. 1600 and 55,000 commoners by the time it goes down.

Note that this is not exactly OP's question, which is 'what is the lowest number of commoners that could defeat an ancient red dragon'. Instead, it assumes an infinite supply of commoners and asks how many will the dragon kill before it goes down. If the commoners were, say, an army of 50,000, they would be deployed finitely in space. In this case the dragon could, as Thomas Markov says, simply keep ahead of any advancing formation using its superior movement, only allowing them to close the distance occasionally so that it could breathe on them. This strategy would work until they were so many that they could effectively surround the dragon at any scale and then close the distance to it, with it unable to escape without cutting through them to get to the 'other side'.

SECOND CONCLUSION: Without being able to fly, the number of commoners required to defeat the dragon would be the number required to deploy in such a way so that they could surround it with no chance of escape - which gets into questions of their deployment and the dragon's advance knowledge that OP does not specify. Once the commoners had the dragon surrounded, they could move in until they were in attack range, at which point several thousand to tens of thousands of would die before they were able to bring the dragon down.

Kirt
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