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I was watching the film A Game of Shadows starring Robert Downey Junior and Jude Law when this line came up, "...neither you nor I is in control..." (I can’t remember the exact words that ended the phrase; if anyone can supply them, it would be much appreciated.)

It immediately struck me as being odd. When I mentioned this to my boyfriend; an English native speaker, with a PhD in something sciency, he told me it was correct. When I asked why, he couldn't explain but put forward the following sentence as an example. "Neither of us is in control..." However, I disagreed with the wording and said the sentence should have been: "Neither one of us is in control..." The genderless third person, one, is singular, and hence, so too the verb that follows. And we say, "one is" NOT "one are".

"Neither you nor I are in control over ..."

I believe the above sounds better, but it is more logical to say:

"Neither you nor I am in control..."

because the verb agrees with the subject closest to it; however, I'm not sure if I have ever read or heard this solution. So, I tried inverting the subject and auxiliary verb order and the resulting phrase was:

  • "Neither you nor am I in control..."

which sounds very formal, pompous, and ... odd. Am I imagining things?

The two subjects you and I are two separate individuals who are not joined together, I agree the verb should be in the singular; but why should we use "is"? We don't say, "you is" or "I is". Before anyone rushes off to claim my question is a duplicate of a previous Stackexchange one: "Neither Michael nor Albert is correct" or "Neither Michael nor Albert are correct"? I want to explain why the answer to that question fails to explain why my boyfriend and the film makers consider the sentence below correct:

Neither you nor I is in control...

As I see it, Michael and Albert are two separate individuals, it therefore stands to reason that the verb should be singular, and "is" agrees with the subject. If I rephrase the neither and nor construction, I would get:

  • Michael is not correct but neither is Albert
    OR
  • Michael is not correct and Albert isn't either.

Which have the same meaning, (either being the negative equivalent of neither) the sentences are grammatical which leads me to conclude that the verb must be singular and hence

  • Neither Michael nor Albert is correct

However, when I rephrase the "neither you nor I" sentence following the same procedure I have to say this:

  • You are not in control but neither am I (‘I am’ is ungrammatical)
    OR
  • You are not in control and I’m not either.

which leads me to surmise that the sentence below must be grammatically correct

  • Neither you nor I am in control"

So, why does my boyfriend insist that the sentence ought to be:

Neither you nor I is in control

Which one of us is right and why?

Community
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Mari-Lou A
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  • See discussion here, especially the comments: http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/10304/which-is-correct-neither-is-or-neither-are – bib Aug 17 '13 at 14:25
  • I don't quite follow your argument at the end of your second paragraph. Your BF says "Neither of us is ..." You think it should be "Neither one of us is ..." - So you are in agreement on the verb form. Hence I'm not clear what the next 2 sentences are referring to, when you still conclude that "is" is correct. I have a recollection of reading in another Q. that with joint subjects, each of which requires a different verb form, then the subject nearer the verb dictates the verb form. OTOH, that would require am in your orig.quote! Or is the subject simply "Neither", which takes "is"? – TrevorD Aug 17 '13 at 14:41
  • I cannot really get into the grammatical details of your example, but I don't see anything wrong with it. I don't see anything wrong with the one you suggested either. – Noah Aug 17 '13 at 14:42
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    See this answer. It is hard to make is be "correct" without modification, but as @TrevorD points out, it is easy to do so with minor modification. The bottom line is that native speakers fumble around here, and that you will not get a unanimous answer from them. – tchrist Aug 17 '13 at 14:49
  • @tchrist As I said "I had a recollection of reading it" - I just didn't realise the recollection was that recent! Thanks. – TrevorD Aug 17 '13 at 15:01
  • @TrevorD I think my point about specifying the third person pronoun in, neither one* of us* makes it easier to see why the verb has to be "is", whereas when the subject is "I" the verb has to be "am". Thus the phrase logically speaking ought to be "neither you nor I am" (is that clearer, now?). – Mari-Lou A Aug 17 '13 at 17:47
  • My BF used the example of "neither of us is in control" as a way to back up his argument. I don't think that it has any relevance to the *neither you nor I (be)" phrase. – Mari-Lou A Aug 17 '13 at 17:51
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    Please see also this question. There's lots more where that comes from. People keep asking it. Nothing is ever closed as a dup. As ELP sang, "Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends / We're so glad you could attend / Come inside! Come inside!". – tchrist Aug 17 '13 at 18:01
  • BF and I have been arguing over this. He still insists that "is" is the correct verb form because we say: "neither one of us is" and, according to him, "us" is the equivalent of saying "you and/nor I" Grrrr..! :) – Mari-Lou A Aug 18 '13 at 12:02
  • @Mari-LouA Just in case you and your boyfriend still have the occasional argument over this, you can tell him that your logic is correct and his is incorrect. “Neither of us is” is structurally entirely different from “Neither you nor I”: in the former, neither is a singular third-person person, so the verb is is without a doubt; in the latter, neither is a conjunction (of sorts), so it really doesn’t directly affect verbal agreement. That doesn’t necessarily mean he’s wrong about what form to use, but it does mean that his parallel is not parallel. – Janus Bahs Jacquet May 19 '14 at 17:46
  • If you wish to convince him further, you can illustrate by how “Neither you nor I is” = “Neither of us is” (to him), but “Neither the Americans nor the French _are_” ≠ “Neither of them is”. (I presume he doesn’t say “neither of them are”—though this is very common in general—if he feels “neither of us are” is wrong.) – Janus Bahs Jacquet May 19 '14 at 17:51
  • Related. – tchrist Oct 22 '23 at 21:26

2 Answers2

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When subjects are connected with neither/nor, the one closest to the verb controls the agreement. Thus, neither you nor I am. Why? Because lots of English grammar books say so.

Sounds awkward? It does. Lots of other English grammar books agree and so does actual usage. As you can see, there's an actual controversy here. There are workarounds that would please adherents of both viewpoints. The easiest one is probably neither I nor you are, but most of your proposed variations would work.

Of course "*Neither you nor I is" is totally wrong, because is doesn't agree with anything in this phrase.

Edwin Ashworth
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n. m. could be an AI
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As a non-native speaker I don't feel competent for this kind of question. Reading the post and the answers I see this grammar problem really is a grey area. I would tend to accept the solution "am", but was interested what Ngrams says about the use in reality. Astonishingly the most frequently used verb form is "are". Follows "is", and the least frequent use is "am".

So this problem has two aspects, one is what grammars say, and we see that grammars can't solve the problem 100 per cent, except providing a mechanical rule. The other aspect is what writers use in reality.

Google Ngrams

rogermue
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  • '[O]ne is what grammars say' wrongly gives the impression that all grammarians are agreed on correct practice here. And 'what writers use in reality' is similarly too broad-brush. The bottom line is that there is divided usage, no consensus. – Edwin Ashworth Nov 26 '21 at 15:39